Bad all-in?

deepsquat · #1 03-19-2005, 04:18 AM

Im new to Nl and NL tournys.

Top pair, good kicker. 2 diamonds on the board is this a bad all-in?

Not sure if theres a convert error but 2 players called my flop all-in. I would have 1500 chips approx if i lose.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t75 (9 handed) converter

MP2 (t3075)
MP3 (t14500)
CO (t3945)
Button (t7965)
SB (t2310)
BB (t10725)
UTG (t3365)
Hero (t5835)
MP1 (t2175)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of t75.
UTG calls t150, Hero raises to t300, 2 folds, MP3 calls t300, CO calls t300, 3 folds, UTG calls t150.

Flop: (t1425) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t5535, MP3 folds, off"UTG calls t3065.

Turn: (t10025) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)

River: (t10025) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot: t10025

mantasm · #2 03-19-2005, 06:25 AM

It seems like with this huge overbet better hands won't fold and worse hands won't call. I think a bet of around 1k-1200 would be appropriate here, then work from there.

MeanGreenTT · #3 03-19-2005, 09:58 AM

I'm no expert by any means but if you're going to play AQ from early position I'd make more than just a mini-raise to isolate the field more, although I'm sure a case could be made for limping....the mini-raise does nothing but build the pot in my opinion.

For a post-flop bet, you've got 1200 in the pot by my calculations and you need to make it cost for those drawing out to the flush, provided they can make a laydown and are also thinking about pot odds, etc...I've found that very often players get married to their hand or a situation and nothing you do can prevent a suckout.

I bet out about 1000 on the Flop making it 2-1 to draw out to the Flush and they should be making a mistake by calling and that's what you want.

tiger7210 · #4 03-19-2005, 10:24 AM

Can you clear up the inforamtion, is the BB 75 or 150? I assume its 150 so i'll go from there.

1) PF UTG calls 150. You then miniraise to 300. So lets just invite the whole table to play against our AQ. If you're going to raise you need to raise this to at least 4x the BB (600)

2) There are 1400 chips in the pot- why open push here. You are probably only called by hands that beat you. Certainly you want to protect against the flush/straight draw but betting 1/2 to 2/3 the pot will make a calling on a draw incorrect and will give you some information on how to proceed in the hand.

I believe your mess stems from your PF play though. If you never miniraise again in NL hold em you'll be a better player. Miniraising does nothing but build a pot and gives you absolutely no information to base future decisions on.

SossMan · #5 03-19-2005, 10:50 AM

the preflop minraise after a limper is terrible. that's about the worst way you can play it, IMO. even a limp is better. I would raise there to 550-700 about every time.
On the flop, I would make a standard continuation bet of about 1k. The all in is letting AT, A9 off the hook way too easily.

HeroInBlack · #6 03-19-2005, 12:48 PM

I'm going to echo what the other posters are saying, but I want to add one thing: You're going to have this situation a million times if you keep playing NL tourneys, so you want to have this procedure carved into your forehead.

Raise it to 3 or 4 times the BB preflop. You likely wouldn't have gotten but one or two calllers. And those callers are probably making a mistake.

After a flop like that one, you are pretty likely to have the best hand. Against that many opponents, you want to bet the size of the pot. Against one opponent, the argument can be made to bet half the pot to keep them drawing, but against this many, bet the pot or pretty close to it. Anybody that calls you is either on a draw or is slow-playing something better than what you have. Your reads on the players from previous hands will come into play here. Some people continually chase draws with bad odds, and some people continually slowplay big hands. When your pot-sized bet gets called, you have to determine which one of these you have on your hands. Sometimes this is tough, but generally early in low buy-in tournaments, the "will chase any draw" option is more likely to be right.

Now, all that being said, your all-in got called here, so it's likely you ran into a hand better than yours. So, likely, if you bet the pot after the flop, you would have gotten raised, and perhaps you could have folded and survived this hand. But the all-in move really gives a free pass to people you're beating and gives the maximum number of your chips to people that are beating you. It would take a real idiot to call your all-in with something less than top pair queen kicker. You want to structure your bets in such a way that it encourages average players to make bad plays. Over and over. And at low buy-ins, they will.

Msogard · #7 03-19-2005, 03:39 PM

I think mini-raising has it's place in NL tournaments. This is not it though.

tiger7210 · #8 03-19-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think mini-raising has it's place in NL tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

When would this be? Other than having the nuts and know your opponent is drawing dead or drawing so thin maybe you can expand on when you think is ok to Miniraise. Certainly never preflop.

Msogard · #9 03-19-2005, 04:07 PM

If your opponents are folding to mini-raises late in tournaments, and the stacks aren't very deep, mini-raising is all that's necessary to steal the blinds.