Did I do all I could here?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Brocktoon says:
Can I get MORE money into the pot by waiting until the turn to raise becaue it will encourage an ep player to lead into me as opposed to everyone checking and calling? I think this is a very difficult question to answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this question depends almost entirely on reads (which is why it is difficult). Without reads, the answer to the question is pretty much speculation.

[ QUOTE ]
SteveL91 says:
I should have counted everything out better. Also, now that I review the hand, Hero's position relative to the likely bettor on the turn is such that you won't be facing most of the field with two cold. Sorry about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

No apology necessary at all. And you may still be correct. We're all debating tough choices, so it's fun to give and take, even if we later think we might have given on less than fully thought-out information.

I think this is a hand that, absent some reads which inform our play, we ought to play pretty straightforwardly (i.e., bet our hand for value until told to do otherwise).

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSH p.165 - "When the pot is already so big, protecting your hand on the turn is more important than raising for value on the flop. If the pot is extremely large, forgo a flop raise IF doing so increases the chance you will be bet into on the turn." (Italics are Ed's, bold caps are mine). You might also want to read the footnote and the bottom of the page.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this concept -- but I don't think it necessarily applies to this hand. This pot is absurdly large -- you can't even protect on the turn except for two-outers. And I'm not convinced that a flop 3-bet induces calls on the flops and checks to Hero on the turn -- obviously it did in this hand, but in a pot this size, with the aggression already shown from EP, and the coldcalls in MP, I am frankly very surprised that this turn played out as it did. Raising the flop is, IMHO, way more likely to produce a cap and an EP bet on the turn. It didn't happen here, but I think it is far more likely thatn what actually happened. Getting multiple bets in on the turn or river is better than on the flop, of course, but I don't think it is reasonable to assume that a 3-bet on this flop likely induces check-call mode on the field (the way it did in this instance).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of those tough judgment call things, I think. It's really really tough to say what's going to happen.

UTG might have capped preflop with QQ, but facing the 3-bet might slow down. Alternatively, he might continue to fire away hoping that he'll showdown the best hand since he has a monster on that board (as long as the flush and straights stay away).

My gut tells me I would rather be putting in that raise on the turn (hopefully, it will even be a 3-bet) *AFTER* I don't see the T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (or some other scary-looking thing) roll of the deck. My position relative to UTG makes it look like I might be able to trap everyone for a few on the turn. Reading through the hand, I would almost anticipate UTG going for a check-raise instead of check-call on the turn.

That bold, italicized, and CAPITALIZED IF is huge in the quote.

[blackaces13]

MP1 had J4d.

Would he have folded to 2 cold on the turn? That's anyone's guess.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 had J4d.

Would he have folded to 2 cold on the turn? That's anyone's guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

He coldcalled J4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pre-flop and then called 2 more when it was capped behind him. He then raised his J no-kicker on a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]-less flop and called the 3-bet. He called a bet on the turn. I don't think he was going away in the face of anything. He is a good part of the reason why we play the game.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (18.5BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: ( <font color="red"> 28.5 </font> BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: <font color="red"> 30.5 BB </font>




[/ QUOTE ]

Since you simply cannot protect your hand due to the pot size, doesn't this build the bigger pot, which is what you want? Plus the added advantage that you might get someone to fold (the psych of being raised on big streets as oppossed to little ones). I say call the flop with plans to raise the turn.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP1 had J4d.

Would he have folded to 2 cold on the turn? That's anyone's guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

He coldcalled J4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pre-flop and then called 2 more when it was capped behind him. He then raised his J no-kicker on a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]-less flop and called the 3-bet. He called a bet on the turn. I don't think he was going away in the face of anything. He is a good part of the reason why we play the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear that.

[Catt]

Yeah - but his specific reactions shouldn't be applicable (even though I highlighted them, which served almost no purpose). Menaing I shouldn't even have commented on his hand and how he played it.

Drawing lessons about how to play this hand next time, based upon his actions in this hand, is the same as reacting to results -- the better approach is for us to evaluate what makes sense assuming a "reasonable" player. He was a total donk; and donks sometimes win. Such is the game.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
you should bet getting as much value in this pot as possible

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't protect, doesn't raising the turn get you an extra BB from everyone instead of an extra SB? Al la this recent thread where Shillx and Davelin convinced me that waiting is better?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you should bet getting as much value in this pot as possible

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't protect, doesn't raising the turn get you an extra BB from everyone instead of an extra SB? Al la this recent thread where Shillx and Davelin convinced me that waiting is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

If raising the flop prevents multiple bets on the turn, sure. My view is that riasing this flop doesn't mean multiple bets won't go into the pot on the turn. My view did not play out in this specific hand; but I'm not sure one should expect that a hand capped pre-flop among 6 players, that is bet and raised by a non-PF raiser and then 3-bet by an LP PF-raiser, is likely to be checked to the LP PF 3-bettor. This hand is very unusual, IMHO. I'd expect this one to be capped on the flop and probably capped on the turn, too, regardless of Hero's actions, given the action and board.

Back to the Party bonus . . . good discussion and I'll check in again later.

[oLyphant]

This thread is really..really..really complex..hard to just read it.