T9s in MP. I don't think I played this correctly.

[KaiShin]

I think I would have to disagree with your example entirely. Loose passive players would have no problem calling 2 cold on the flop. If the table is tight then I could see the argument for the call with so many limpers yet to act. But given the general makeup of your average micro table, raising here is likely to win you more money on average. Your example seems to be of the worst-case sort, without taking into account the times when one or more limpers call two cold on the flop, or the implied odds of hitting our flush, which if we got 3-bet on the flop, would certainly be significant.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Those are completely different hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Yeah I realise that now. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] But I wanted to have the thought process behind facing the field ccing 2.

I still think the flop raise sucks. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

With flush draws I want as many opponents in as possible. I don't think that we're really cleaning up T or 9 outs here. Nor do I think that a 9 or T is going to win it. I'm playing this hand for its flush outs, not its pair outs. Thus, I want the entire field calling one bet. Even players at .5/1 know how to fold when its two to them cold.

Sponger- why are you playing .5/1?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those are completely different hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Yeah I realise that now. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] But I wanted to have the thought process behind facing the field ccing 2.

I still think the flop raise sucks. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

With flush draws I want as many opponents in as possible. I don't think that we're really cleaning up T or 9 outs here. Nor do I think that a 9 or T is going to win it. I'm playing this hand for its flush outs, not its pair outs. Thus, I want the entire field calling one bet. Even players at .5/1 know how to fold when its two to them cold.

Sponger- why are you playing .5/1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shadow, you may be right, maybe it's more EV to keep more players in the pot for your flush draw than raising to increase your chance of hitting a pair to win. I'm sure someone could do this analysis

But we're not just cleaning 9 or T outs here, in this example Hero may have won this hand by getting someone to fold a J on the flop.

[tiltaholic]

hi
nice hand.
my main comment seems to be one that people haven't really discussed -- do we really think this river value bet is a good one? i realize it only needs to be successful a very small number of times, but still...will it?
-t

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
But we're not just cleaning 9 or T outs here, in this example Hero may have won this hand by getting someone to fold a J on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Same thing, in my mind. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

We need shill to come in and do the math thing.

I'm fairly certain that its more EV to get everyone to stick around for the flush, though.

[DMBFan23]

the math on that is hard, because we need to know who's going to pay off when we hit, but would have folded to two cold on the flop.

I'll trust Ed that as the pot gets larger, knocking players out becomes better if you have overcard outs. is this pot big enough? I won't get into that argument, no one can agree on how big is big enough and how much cleaning up pair outs matters.

[elbuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
do we really think this river value bet is a good one? i realize it only needs to be successful a very small number of times, but still...will it?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+2 will pay us off with his pair of 7s just to see what we raised him on the flop with. There's no evidence to suggest someone paired the J, or that the 9 helped anyone but us. So yeah, I think so.

[rabman]

Preflop good. Flop good. Turn I would probably try for the the free card and check/call. I like the river bet after showing aggression on the turn. Had you checked the turn the play may have been to check/call again on the river. I have trouble playing aggressively with so many players in the hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

I think your flop raise sucks.

Why are you making the field face 2 cold with a flush draw?

Here's an excerpt from my article due in the April mag:

[/ QUOTE ]

The two hands aren't even close. Overs + flush draw is a lot stronger on this board, the pot is 8SB, and I'd like to do what I can to increase the possibility of winning it with a pair of 9's or Ten's. Since my raise is likely neutral EV against one player, getting it HU isn't bad -- if people call along, well, the more the merrier.

Rob

[shadow29]

Read my next couple responses.