Starting Hand Analysis

[Oversway]

Dear All,

Pacific Poker 3/6 Omaha8B

Typical Loose/Passive Low Limit Omaha 8B Game

4-6 people see the flop, 2-4 see the River

Very little raising in this game until a low is made.

I am in EP with the Hand:


A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

My first instinct is to call because I am unlikely to get raised and I have the following things going for me:

1. If a 2 flops I would have a draw to the nut low or, with the right flop, have the nut low.
2. I have a 6 for a backup in case I got counterfeited on the river, and that 6 could make a 6 high straight with a wheel.
3. I have a high flush possibility with the K6 of spades which could win me the high and lead to a scoop.

However, I decided to pass this hand for the following reasons:

1. I do not, in fact, have the makings of a nut hand and this hand looks like one that could get hit on the flop, with say 45K rainbow and end up paying off both ways.
2. The six is not that great a backup if the flop comes 248 and the river is an 3 or A.
3. The flush is not the nuts, so I really want the Ace of spades out, but that counterfeits my low.
4. I’m out of position so I won’t know what others are doing if the flop hits me marginally.

Am I just being insanely tight here or uncannily prudent. I should also mention that I am trying to build my bankroll and trying to stay away from speculative hands, especially in EP.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
1. If a 2 flops I would have a draw to the nut low or, with the right flop, have the nut low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oversway - Yes, but even if a deuce doesn't flop, you figure to win low more than half the time when low is possible and when you don't get counterfeited.

[ QUOTE ]
2. I have a 6 for a backup in case I got counterfeited on the river, and that 6 could make a 6 high straight with a wheel.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a pot limit game, you can probably make a six high straight plus a wheel pay off big for you, but although it's nice in a limit game, there's usually not such a large pay-off (as in a pot limit game) associated with getting 3/4 of a pot. And you're not going to make a six high straight plus a wheel much. More importantly, for various reasons, the six is not a particularly good card to hold in your hand in a limit O8 game.

[ QUOTE ]
3. I have a high flush possibility with the K6 of spades which could win me the high and lead to a scoop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The hand has decent scoop possibilities.

In a full game the king flush figures to lose to an ace flush roughly one time in three.

But there's more to this hand than just the 2nd nut low and 2nd nut flush draws. An ace-king combination is nice to have - and except for the six, the hand has no middle cards, which is good. I'd at least like to see the flop with the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
1. I do not, in fact, have the makings of a nut hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a hand that will win more often without making the nuts than it will win making the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
...and this hand looks like one that could get hit on the flop, with say 45K rainbow and end up paying off both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean exactly. You should like to continue if the flop is 45K-rainbow, but when you do, you're on a draw.

But this is Omaha-8. Being on a draw after the flop is the norm. And missing your draw or possibly getting screwed on the river even when you do make your draw goes with the territory.

Try this: Pull the cards for that particular hand out of the deck and deal out nine other hands. Do that several times. I'll bet
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is the hand you'll like the best of the ten hands more often than not. Fold about half the hands, deal out a board and see how our hand fares. Do this several times. I think the hand will hold its own. (I know it will more than hold its own in simulations).

[ QUOTE ]
2. The six is not that great a backup

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. For various reasons, including that it's a lousy low back-up card, a six is not a particularly good card to have in your individual hand in limit Omaha-8. (Here, of course, the six adds value because it's the same suit as the king.)

[ QUOTE ]
3. The flush is not the nuts, so I really want the Ace of spades out, but that counterfeits my low.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. The ace of spades (or any ace or three) will probably ruin your hand for low, thus messing up your chances to scoop.

You're entirely omitting full house considerations (and various other possibilities).

[ QUOTE ]
4. I’m out of position so I won’t know what others are doing if the flop hits me marginally.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should rather have any hand on the button. But this hand is not a marginal hand. This is a very nice hand. This hand is strong enough to play from early or mid position. Although not a premium hand, nonetheless this is a very nice starting hand.

(I'm not sure what you mean exactly by the flop hitting you "marginally.")

[ QUOTE ]
Am I just being insanely tight here or uncannily prudent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether it's prudent or not to fold depends, I suppose, on your opinion of the hand as a starting hand. My own opinion is that
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a fine starting hand. Thus it would be way too tight for me to fold it. However, opinions about starting hands and playing styles differ.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[arcticfire]

I don't think you can really be faulted for passing it up. It's a grey area starting hand. The other poster whom responded gave some great reasons why it can be played. I would lean more the way you did, mostly thow because to me the hand needs a 2 on the flop to really be able to be bet strongly.

[donkeyradish]

In my book its a mediochre hand which to me just means, in early position I don't play it, but in late position I will usually, (if unraised with several callers)

However, if the 3 was a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] we have a double-suited hand. For me that would tip the scales and I'd want to see a flop.

[mosquito]

In the end it comes down to two questions...

1. How many fish will see the flop

2. Will anyone raise preflop

If you are on Party, and 7 people limp to see the
flop, you give up way too much to fold.

[chaos]

Under the conditions you describe I would play the hand. I think you give up too much by folding this hand in a loose passive game.

If the game was aggressive you would have a reason to fold. You do not want to be putting in multiple bets from out of position with this hand.

[colgin]

I am very new to O/8 so take this with a grain of salt. I limp here in LP after several limpers assuming not too agrressive blinds, but muck in EP. I guess if the game is super loose-passive you can limp in from EP. Since I am just adding this game to my repertoire I have been erring on the too-tight side.