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#11
03-17-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] check-call flop seems right. betting and hoping for a raise gives us unreliable information. [/ QUOTE ] maybe, but i don't think we'd be betting for information. i'd really like the others to fold - our hand is highly vulnerable to many turn cards with a large field - and i like our hand a lot more if it becomes a heads up contest. and villian is likely to raise. [/ QUOTE ] CO should be auto-betting this flop. we gain the same protection whether he bets or we bet. if we bet and he raises.. we get a little stuck on the turn. do we give up a free card? i don't like any line that has us check-ing the turn and i don't like 3-betting the flop since we might scare 99 type hands into calling us down. i think we can be a bit more sophisticated here.. tho i'm just starting to work on hands like these more. 
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#12
03-17-2005, 05:24 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
okay i think i agree to bet out the flop. get the hand HU and if SB is on an backdoor draws, wouldn't cold calling 2 be unprofitable? (i have trouble figuring that out).
i wouldn't check-raise though with your hand so vulnerable. and definitely not fold. PRF bettor might not have a pair and just be betting overcards. you have backdoor flush, straight, and 2 outs to trips (though we may have to discount them due to straight draws). check on turn seems fine. if you checked on turn because of possible flush, why check-raise? call down the river. i wonder what SB could be hanging around with???
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#13
03-17-2005, 05:25 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] check-call flop seems right. betting and hoping for a raise gives us unreliable information. [/ QUOTE ] maybe, but i don't think we'd be betting for information. i'd really like the others to fold - our hand is highly vulnerable to many turn cards with a large field - and i like our hand a lot more if it becomes a heads up contest. and villian is likely to raise. [/ QUOTE ] CO should be auto-betting this flop. we gain the same protection whether he bets or we bet. if we bet and he raises.. we get a little stuck on the turn. do we give up a free card? i don't like any line that has us check-ing the turn and i don't like 3-betting the flop since we might scare 99 type hands into calling us down. i think we can be a bit more sophisticated here.. tho i'm just starting to work on hands like these more. [/ QUOTE ] well, if he bets, SB gets 8:1 and can make a thin call with a lot of hands...so i'd really like this to be HU. initially for some reason i thought the field was 4 people, not 3...so, forcing the "field" with 2 cold loses it's appeal, since it's just one other opponent. but, I don't think check-calling the flop and betting a turn blank is a bad line. i'm also working on hands like this, or rather, regularly screwing them up. i agree that conceding a free river card would be a bad bad thing.
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#14
03-17-2005, 05:29 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
[ QUOTE ]
check on turn seems fine. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. You might be ahead at this point if CO is betting overcards. Do you want to give him a free look at the river? Plus, when the flush card falls I like leading out unless I am certain he was on a flush draw, which I am not.
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#15
03-17-2005, 05:32 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
[ QUOTE ]
i agree that conceding a free river card would be a bad bad thing. [/ QUOTE ] i'm gonna need help with this because these situations always freeze me. SB checks the turn, so either he doesn't have the flush or he's gonna c/r me. i know villain is gonna bet, so why not check to him and see what SB does? i don't understand what betting the river gets us- adding the pot for our flush draw? semi-bluff for a flush? villian seems to like his hand and isn't gonna faint in the sight of aggression. wouldn't that leave us a c/r on the turn of our own if SB calls the villian's raise?
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#16
03-17-2005, 05:39 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
I'd say either check/fold on the flop, or bet. If you bet, yer buddy is likely to raise and face the SB with two bets.
As it played out, two people felt good enough about their hands to bet into you, and your hand was vuenerable. I always have trouble with these hands, too.
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#17
03-17-2005, 06:18 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
to my previous post: i didn't mean to ask why bet the river- i meant to ask why bet the turn.
wouldn't the decision on the turn then affect the river play? meaning, if we bet in some way shape or form the turn, and then the 7 comes on the river, we're betting anyways because of the c/r on the turn. but if we check the turn and call the bet, then we don't know if the villian does have the flush or not and have to call down right?
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#18
03-17-2005, 06:35 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
[ QUOTE ]
to my previous post: i didn't mean to ask why bet the river- i meant to ask why bet the turn. [/ QUOTE ] IMO because you don't want to give a free card on the river while there is a pretty decent chance that you're ahead here. Players with overcards in position will frequently auto-bet the flop and then check the turn for a free one. At least if I had overcards here I would.
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#19
03-17-2005, 06:52 PM
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Results and thoughts
Sorry FreakDaddy, I suppose I could have posted the usual "how was my line here?"
Anyhow, about the hand: I know the villain to be a pretty tight player preflop, so the preflop raise told me he had a pretty big hand. On the flop, I check-raised because I knew he would bet out with overcards; the three-bet kind of set off alarms and I instantly put him on AA/KK. The SB being in the hand didn't bother me much, as I figured it was the typical fish. On the turn, I called with my four-flush hoping he didn't have a spade. This is probably a big -EV decision considering the SB was still in the hand and I was just guessing that the villain didn't have a spade, but I was pretty confident that I had 13 outs or so against the villain's Aces or Kings. The trusty hand history showed that villain had <font color="white">KhKd</font>. Thanks a lot for all the comments, next time I'll make sure to post a hand against someone I'm not so familiar with.
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#20
03-17-2005, 06:54 PM
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Re: 77 UTG
davelin: could you help answer the other questions i had in my post:
[ QUOTE ] i'm gonna need help with this because these situations always freeze me. SB checks the turn, so either he doesn't have the flush or he's gonna c/r me. i know villain is gonna bet, so why not check to him and see what SB does? i don't understand what betting the river gets us- adding the pot for our flush draw? semi-bluff for a flush? villian seems to like his hand and isn't gonna faint in the sight of aggression. wouldn't that leave us a c/r on the turn of our own if SB calls the villian's raise? [/ QUOTE ]
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