Problems with TT on loose tables

[Swax]

I think I'm playing TT improperly on loose-passive type tables, as I have a fairly significant -EV with it which is not good for a pair that high.

I know that in SSHE, TT is classified as one of the big pair hands, and the book recommends that you raise and I believe even reraise with it at times. I'm guessing that's an effective strategy if enough players drop out that you can be going heads-up against AK, KQs, etc...

However, at your typical .5/1 table, it's not uncommon that your raise fails to clear out hands that have no business staying in (especially if they've already limped in), and it's typical that post-raise I'm still up against, say, QJo, A7o and K6s, as all of these hands are apt to stick it out at this limit. With this being the case, is a raise REALLY +EV with this hand? Is it an auto-raise hand like KK or AA? I mean, obviously if I'm the first one in and I'm in MP or LP, I pop it, but from EP in a game where raises aren't respected, it just seems too common to have every overcard out there.

Therefore, in this type of game, should I play TT like I do a middle pair (i.e. hope to flop a set or no more than one overcard, otherwise consider folding to a bet)?

Any advice would be lovely.

[SCfuji]

dont mix your post flop beats with your preflop hesitancies (is this even a word?). preflop at loose tables i will cap TT w/o thinking twice. if people want to pay 2/3 bets cold with their JQo, fine by me.

[KaiShin]

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(snip) With this being the case, is a raise REALLY +EV with this hand?

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Yes, it really is. I will always cap this one preflop if someone 3-bets me raise. Playing TT just for set value is a mistake. It may be that you cannot easily get away from the hand postflop, if overcards come and its obvious that someone's holding a J-Ax. Try posting a TT hand you're unsure about in this thread, and maybe we can help you track down the problem.

[NigelTufnel]

What is your sample size for being in the red with TT?

[jack spade23]

at a table that calls those raises, it is ok to have them in because chances are they are calling with crap. When the flop is favorable, that is more money to you that they wasted

[vulturesrow]

Read my post on my biggest pot and tell me if you think my preflop raise with TT was +EV. Look at the hands that got shown down and you will see why you raise your TT preflop.

One thing that really helped me was actively working at separating my pf bets from my post flop bets. Seems like such an easy thing to do doesnt it? Onec the money is in the pot, its not yours! Each betting round is a new round of decisions. But you must raise this preflop to extract the most from your equity edge. Chances are, you have the best hand, you always want to get your money into the pot when you have the best of it. Thats all you are doing.

[jrz1972]

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post-raise I'm still up against, say, QJo, A7o and K6s, as all of these hands are apt to stick it out at this limit. With this being the case, is a raise REALLY +EV

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You have TT. Your opponent has A7o. And you really have to ask if your raise is + EV?

[Swax]

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post-raise I'm still up against, say, QJo, A7o and K6s, as all of these hands are apt to stick it out at this limit. With this being the case, is a raise REALLY +EV

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You have TT. Your opponent has A7o. And you really have to ask if your raise is + EV?

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LOL, OK, when you put it like that, it sounds a bit different. Again, though, against one opponent with that hand, sure, it's obviously +EV.

I don't know - I guess maybe I'm searching for a leak, because TT is the only pair other than 33 that I'm -EV with. TT just seems so damn vulnerable to me or something. My sample size is about 5K hands - not huge, for sure, but enough to probably start trying to fix potential leaks.

So cap preflop in most situations - OK. so...what to do when flop has a K and a J? Bet out?

[jrz1972]

If your sample size is 5000 hands, you probably only have 30 or so TTs in your dataset, right? That's not enough to identify a leak.

If you're plus with JJ and 99, there's a real good chance your minus result for TT is just random variance.

[Entity]

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So cap preflop in most situations

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No. Don't cap preflop in most situations. Raise and 3-bet, but I wouldn't cap.

Anyway, 5k hands is such a small sample size you can't say much.

I'll bet some flops w/overcards, depending on # of opponents and the overcards and preflop considerations and the # of draws on the board, and I'll check others. Sometimes I'll check-call and sometimes I'll check-fold. It's really situationally dependent, but it's hard to play TT so badly that it'd be a long time loser.

Rob