Question for Atheists and maybe those who believe in God.

[ThisHo]

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I just don't believe that there is some all-knowing being watching over me and taking notes, to exact vengeance whenever I step across the lines that he has set out.


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I am a Christian and this isn't the God I believe in. The God I believe in sets rules to help me live my life to the fullest. Does He discipline me when I am wrong - yes, He does. Does He do it by running me over with a car or by some other extreme punishment, no. Jesus came to Earth to restore our relationship with God. He came and died for our sins so that we could have relationship with the God that he referred to as Abba ("daddy"). He called us "children of God" and gave us access to relationship with Abba. This is the relationship that I have with God. He loves me like a son and I love Him like a Father/Daddy. Does a Father discipline his children? If he loves them, yes he does. Does he protect them and care for them and provide for them... if he loves them, yes. This is the God that I know. This is the relationship that I have with HIM. This is possible through Jesus.

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I spend my Sundays sleeping in, lying around the house, maybe doing some chores, and watching football during the season--where I a Christian, such behavior would condemn me to an eternity in hell (depending on which sect of Christianity, admittedly).

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I'm assuming you're referring to the Catholic Church here as they are the strictest on the "must go to Church on Sunday" rules... but even they have a Saturday evening service you could attend if you wanted to sleep in on Sunday or catch some football.
However... the point of Sunday church is that its an opportunity to gather with other Christians to worship and praise God; to thank Him for the MANY blessings in our life. It is also a time for some study of His word and a time of prayer and support from other believers. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say "thou shalt go to church every Sunday." It does say not to forsake the gathering of believers. Tradition has just built itself to do it on Sunday.

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I had a delicious bacon cheeseburger for lunch yesterday

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Really? Where from? I love bacon cheeseburgers and I had one from Carl's Jr today, but it wasn't exactly delicious.

I think the general question from the OP is an interesting one though and the fact that one of the poster's said that if he knew 100% that he could get away with taking the $25k he ABSOLUTELY would. Also, his reason for not contract killing had nothing to do with respect for life, he just doesn't want the hassel of staying out of jail. I'm hoping I don't run into him in a dark alley 'cuz, although I'm looking forward to Heaven, I don't think I'm done with my work here yet.

just my thoughts on the topic
ThisHo

[Harv72b]

I was obviously oversimplifying in my original post in this thread, and I applaud your beliefs and the positive influences that they have in your life. You must realize, however, that the God you believe in is not the same as the God that others believe in.

The Christian Bible teaches that God will punish your sins, not by having you get run over by a car, but rather by waiting until you die and then casting you into eternal damnation in a fiery pit of sulphur. Others have taken this a bit further to blame every day misfortunes on God's vengeance. Either way, I'd rather get hit by a car than burn for all eternity.

I got the bacon cheeseburger at Wendy's--there's a good one near here. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regarding the original poster's question, let's turn it around a little. Let's say that you, as a good Christian, one day had God speak to you personally. We won't speculate on whether or not it truly was God--we'll just say that you were absolutely convinced that it was. Now, He tells you that your next door neighbor is an evil man who will commit terrible attrocities against millions of others, and that it would please Him if you were to kill your neighbor. He promises to protect you from all earthly harm if you carry out his wishes.

Would you?

[AAeyes]

I think most people have an internal sense of right and wrong... some have been taught to define that sense as the will of god whereas others would just feel guilty if they murdered someone. I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter what your reasoning is, the way you live your life is the way you live your life. Doesn't make much difference if it's because you don't want to go to hell or not.

[BadBoyBenny]

I'd be happier if God just offered me the 25 grand risk free,

[ThisHo]

Harv:

Clearly most of what is going to be posted here is "overly simplified" - no doubts and I didn't take what you wrote to be absolutely 100% of what you believe.

I do need to address one thing though before getting into the rest of your post:
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I got the bacon cheeseburger at Wendy's--there's a good one near here.

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Uh... I'm not sure I can have a legitimate debate with someone that calls the Wendy's bacon cheeseburger delicious. Had one a month ago and I'll NEVER do that again! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Ok.. with that cleared up:
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You must realize, however, that the God you believe in is not the same as the God that others believe in.


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YES, I do understand that the God I believe in is not the god that others believe in. I understand that they are just as sure that their path is correct as I am. Sadly, this has been at the center of far too many of the world's major conflicts.

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The Christian Bible teaches that God will punish your sins, not by having you get run over by a car, but rather by waiting until you die and then casting you into eternal damnation in a fiery pit of sulphur

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The Christian Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that sins must be punished. The part you've left out is that JESUS came to Earth to die on the cross to serve that punishment for all mankind. Those that believe in Him and believe that He came to Earth as the Messiah and that He died for our sins and that He rose again from the grave to conquer death will be with Him in Heaven. Jesus offers mercy and forgiveness and grace to those that choose to accept it freely. Those that do not believe in Him and accept the Mercy and Forgiveness that He freely gives will, sadly, face the punishment that you have mentioned. So, you're not incorrect, but you did leave out a very large piece of the equation.
Again... I understand that not eveyone believes this, and I understand that other religions teach that there are ways for you to earn your way to their "heaven". I am just making sure that the full picture of what the Christian Bible says about sin and death and punishment and mercy and heaven are presented here.

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We won't speculate on whether or not it truly was God--we'll just say that you were absolutely convinced that it was. Now, He tells you that your next door neighbor is an evil man who will commit terrible attrocities against millions of others, and that it would please Him if you were to kill your neighbor. He promises to protect you from all earthly harm if you carry out his wishes.

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We'll definately ignore the "does God talk to people" part of this question - leave that for another time...
I can't give you the straight "YES" or "NO" answer that you want here. The God I believe in would not give me directions to just walk next door and kill the guy that lives there. The Bible teaches me about the sort of things that God would have us do and this clearly is NOT in the category of that. If I felt like I were given direction from God to do something REALLY HUGE (say, move to Thailand to be a missionary) I'd be looking through my Bible and seeing if there are passages that support the idea or if there are passages that oppose the what I think I've heard. I'd pray about it and seek out council from other Christians that I trust. I wouldn't just pack my bags and move to Thailand tomorrow.
I see this question more as a trap than anything (which bums me out because I thought we were gonna have a legit debate where we didn't expect to change anyones minds, but just wanted to make sure that we understood what the other believed). I have a feeling you're next post will be "Son of Sam claimed that he got messages from God through his dog and that's why he killed people --- where does that fit into your belief system." Please tell me that's not your next post. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Have a Nice Evening!
ThisHo

[andyfox]

"I also believe that we are bound to do things that are wrong, that we can't help ourselves, and that we need God's help in order to be changed and have a relationship with Him."

Why can't we help outselves? Nobody is perfect, of course, but we can help ourselves in many ways. I have choices I can make and I can elect to do the right thing if I so choose.

When you say we need god's help in order to change, what exactly do you mean? In order to do the right thing? And when you say "in order to have a relationship with him" do you mean we won't have a relationship with him unless we change?

[Harv72b]

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Uh... I'm not sure I can have a legitimate debate with someone that calls the Wendy's bacon cheeseburger delicious. Had one a month ago and I'll NEVER do that again! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Just like with any other chain restaurant, there are good Wendys and bad ones. I happen to live near a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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The Christian Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that sins must be punished. The part you've left out is that JESUS came to Earth to die on the cross to serve that punishment for all mankind. Those that believe in Him and believe that He came to Earth as the Messiah and that He died for our sins and that He rose again from the grave to conquer death will be with Him in Heaven. Jesus offers mercy and forgiveness and grace to those that choose to accept it freely. Those that do not believe in Him and accept the Mercy and Forgiveness that He freely gives will, sadly, face the punishment that you have mentioned. So, you're not incorrect, but you did leave out a very large piece of the equation.
Again... I understand that not eveyone believes this, and I understand that other religions teach that there are ways for you to earn your way to their "heaven". I am just making sure that the full picture of what the Christian Bible says about sin and death and punishment and mercy and heaven are presented here.

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As I understand it, though (and correct me if I'm wrong), all of mankind is still held accountable for Original Sin, or Applegate (the Eden kind, not Christina--I'd like to be held...nevermind. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). To atone for this sin, a person must accept Jesus as the Christ, be baptized, live a good life in accordance with the tenets of the Church, etc. If you do not, it's burning sulphur. Incidentally, that would be the same punishment, Biblically speaking, which would be doled out to a mass murderer or genocidal maniac. I find it very hard to comprehend how an individual could come to grips with a system that preaches that. In essence, saying that it's just as evil to be Hindu (or gay) as it is to murder 10,000 people. Again, an oversimplification, but you see the core point.

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I can't give you the straight "YES" or "NO" answer that you want here. The God I believe in would not give me directions to just walk next door and kill the guy that lives there. The Bible teaches me about the sort of things that God would have us do and this clearly is NOT in the category of that. If I felt like I were given direction from God to do something REALLY HUGE (say, move to Thailand to be a missionary) I'd be looking through my Bible and seeing if there are passages that support the idea or if there are passages that oppose the what I think I've heard. I'd pray about it and seek out council from other Christians that I trust. I wouldn't just pack my bags and move to Thailand tomorrow.
I see this question more as a trap than anything (which bums me out because I thought we were gonna have a legit debate where we didn't expect to change anyones minds, but just wanted to make sure that we understood what the other believed). I have a feeling you're next post will be "Son of Sam claimed that he got messages from God through his dog and that's why he killed people --- where does that fit into your belief system." Please tell me that's not your next post.

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Not a trap at all, and I gave up trying to convert the masses a long time ago. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You sort of gave the answer that I was looking for--which is that your initial reaction would be that this was wrong. That's something that's built into the vast majority of humanity, whether through genetics, society, religion, or what have you. We tend not to want to kill other people, because we have a deep-seeded belief that to do so would be wrong. That has nothing to do with the potential for punishment or reward, it's just who we are. The same holds true for an atheist as does for a theist.

Incidentally, and just for clarification's sake, the God of the Bible does command his followers to kill others, on a fairly regular basis. But only in the Old Testament; in the New Testament, we have the kinder, gentler Christian God who preaches love and compassion. This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history, but this is true of any belief system, including atheism.

Regarding trying to change anyone's minds...I don't try to do this because I have long recognized that religion is, on the whole, a beneficial institution for the masses and for individuals. Many people need their faith in order to live their daily lives, and live better lives for it. My own viewpoint, which is sadly not shared by the vast majority of the world's religions, is that there is no right or wrong faith--only a right or wrong way to live one's life. I do try to plant the odd seed of thought within a theist's mind, yes...but only so that they can think it over and come to their own conclusions on the subject. If a person is a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Wiccan, whatever...as long as they're happy with that, I couldn't change their minds anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[octop]

Let me start by saying that I dont belive in God
Basically I dont go around doing anything I please is I do have a sense of right and wrong
I wont rob an old lady b/c I dont want somebody to rob my grandmother
However I will steal cable or [censored] over a credit card company without a second thought, while at the same time if the guy in the candy store gives me to much change I would give it back to him in a second

Rules set forth by religion just seem stupid
Why shouldnt I h ave sex before Im married? I think marriage is pointless anyway ( all it is is a contract and i wont even sign a 2 year cell phone contract so marriage is out)
Im supposed to deprive myself o f pleasure and that will make me a good person? Thats rediculous
Maybe I shouldnt have sex join the church and grope 6 year old boys penises instead so I go straight to heaven

[bernie]

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what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God? There has to be more reasons then "it is against the law that man made". Evil things can range from simple crimes of stealing from people, to murder. If you are smart enough to not get caught committing the crime, why not do it? You will not be punished in the end.


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Religion didn't create the 'Golden Rule'. In many cases they violated it quite a bit in the past.

b

[bernie]

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If you do not believe in God, why not?


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How about the people who do believe in God'd and do it? How about the mopes who do it in the name of God'd?

b