A Common Situation

[David Sklansky]

Playing 15-30 against decent opponents. Two middle position players limp. You call five more dollars in the small blind with 95 of spades. Big blind checks. Flop is Th9h6s. You check. Next two guys check. Last guy bets. Should you call fold or raise? Would it have been better to come out betting?

[The Prince]

You should raise, IMO.

Last player usually does not have a better hand and you confront the other player with calling 2 cold. When the 2 blinds check, the 2 limpers should be betting with a lot of hands, like gutshots with overcards, second or third pair etc...Your raise on the flop will win you the pot on the turn very often.

I don't like coming out betting against 3 opponents. I'd rather wait and see. Especially since in my games, the last player to act will bet most of the times, giving me the opportunity to check-raise. Against 2 players (one of them being the BB), I usually bet.

My 2 cents,

[Snoman]

I think I would fold and look for a better spot. If you aren't beat now there is a good chance that you will be by the river. Given that there is another opponent who is likely to have been touched by this flop in some way and that a K,Q,J,8 or [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] is going to make it difficult to continue on the turn and that you are out of position, leading at the flop and continuing on the turn may have some value but it is a tricky "common situation". Considering that you may already be way behind, behind at the river, or bluffed out between now and then I would fold unless I had an overwhelming reason for calling.
Sno

[Diplomat]

My first instinct was to ask what kind of a player the last player to act is. Does he bluff often when checked to on the flop? Does he bet his draws? Will he ever bet bottom or middle pair, even if checked to?

I think I prefer a fold here over raising, even with knowledge of the player that may indicate that I am ahead. Why?

1. I can see of only a few hands that you are -currently- ahead of that a player might bet (pocket pair 8's or smaller, bottom pair w/ decent kicker, flush/straight draw, overcards, pure bluff). Moreover, several of these have a good draw against you (flush and straightdraws, overcards, overcard kickers, etc.)

2. If you are behind, you have a weak draw to win (two-pair -might- be good, maybe trips, maybe runner-runner flush).

3. The pot size does not really justifiy chasing if indeed you are behind, nor does the pot lay you good odds for snapping off a bluff.

4. You are out of position.

5. Despite the two players in the middle checking, you do not know if a raise will put you head's up. If you raise and was called by one of the players in the middle as well as the button, your hand is in big trouble unless you hit on the turn.

I think that's about it. Criticism welcome and encouraged.

[Rick Nebiolo]

I just love to be one of the first ones in with my foot in my mouth [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

The big blind and first limper are usually going to bet this flop into a relatively small field with a hand or a good draw and especially a draw with overcards (e.g., QJ). They might check a very big hand (a set or straight) but they will rarely pure bluff since the board is suited and connected with all middle cards. The last limper will have a much wider range of hands to bet here. If you checkraise, you generally represent top pair, decent kicker or slightly better. You don’t checkraise a draw since you don’t want to narrow the field and with most big hands you bet out hoping to get action.

If you are called by the blind or early limper you are in trouble, but they shouldn’t have hands that call checkraises. Unfortunately, even when they fold, you will often be called by the flop bettor, since this hand is so connected it is likely he would take one off. Now you have a fourth street dilemma. Because of the fourth street problems, I like the fold but would consider the checkraise. The problem with calling is that you never get the immediate win when the bettor was bluffing and he folds. When you are out of position you generally want to take the pot right away.

I don’t like lead betting because the pot is too connected. You will rarely get the immediate win you seek. However, if the flop were K96 rainbow I like the lead bet by a lot. With that flop I would expect to win about 30% of the time and can give it up if I am raised.

Regards,

Rick

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[spiral]

I have been experimenting with betting out here and then 3 betting a raise. The idea is to get heads up against a drawing hand that was trying for a free card. I'll then bet the turn when a non-threatening card comes off.

Obviously this is disasterous if several people come along because I'm not winning my fair share, but I've found that it doesn't happen that often.

This could be because I tend to have a decent read on my regular opponents...

Maybe this is slightly the wrong situation, perhaps if the flop had fewer likely drawing combinations... this one may hit the average limper too hard. Maybe if it weren't suited or if I had slightly more outs, like a gutshot?

Anyone think there might be some possibilities here, or am I on crack?

[Snoman]

Well... I think the possibilty that you are already beaten by one of your THREE opponents or will be drawn out on is awfully high. Combine this with your position and the highly coordinated board that will make it increasingly difficult to continue and I think it is a tough spot. If you lead and three bet a raise in what started as a 4 SB pot will you fold when the flush gets there, or one of the straights, or the overcards, or a raise on the turn? I think that this is a common situation and is therefore important but in the paraphrased words of Ben Franklin - "A small bet saved is a small bet earned"
Sno

[andyfox]

I wouldn't bet into that "limper's flop." I wouldn't worry about a check-raise from the two limpers who checked, I would think with something worthwhile ( a T or a 9 or a 3-flush or opene-ender) they would have bet the flop. I'd call with 2nd pair and backdoor flush potential.

I'd also get Mason to change my "journeyman" status to Grand Poobah's Mentor.

[Rube]

Fold

The pot is small

You're risking two small bets

The button won't fold for one small bet on the flop

There are lots of turn cards you don't want to see

This hand is difficult to play out of position

Even if you are currently ahead you could be a dog to hands with overcards plus straight and/or flush draws

Players will often slowplay big hands in this situation

The nine high backdoor flush draw doesn't add enough value to this hand

I also wouldn't lead into three decent players on a coordinated board with cards in the playing zone holding middle pair bad kicker

[FishyWhale]

Betting would have been much(!) better against just three ops imo, now it´s check-raise or fold I guess.