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#11
03-13-2005, 05:51 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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What's so important about that? [/ QUOTE ] It demonstrates that there is more order in the universe now then at the start of the big bang. Stu 
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#12
03-13-2005, 06:05 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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if you take chemistry or physics you will learn about entropy. There is some law about it which says the order in the universe is always decreasing. It is impossible for any event to make the universe more ordered. things like conscience people, houses and civiliazation which are ordered are allowed because in the long run they actually create more disorder in the long run. [/ QUOTE ] Good point. Eventually the whole ordering process is going to simply run out of usable energy. Stu
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#13
03-13-2005, 06:27 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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[ QUOTE ] What's so important about that? [/ QUOTE ] It demonstrates that there is more order in the universe now then at the start of the big bang. Stu [/ QUOTE ] How? I don't understand how consciousness relates to order. I mean, we're conscious, but we don't really know anything except how to eat, crap, and make more of us. Then we die. We can create any number of things, like big buildings and paper airplanes and pet rocks and guns and cars and flower arrangements...... the list goes on... but what does that have to do with order? What is order? If the laws of physics are the same as they were when the singularity erupted, how has "order" -- whose definition I'm still not privy to -- increased? I mean, the previous poster's remarks about entropy would suggest that "order" has been in decline since the big bang. Maybe we're just capable of witnessing this decline? A decline of something for which I can't really come up with a definition. Order? What the heck is order?
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#14
03-13-2005, 08:05 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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We can create any number of things, like big buildings and paper airplanes and pet rocks and guns and cars and flower arrangements...... the list goes on... but what does that have to do with order? What is order? [/ QUOTE ] Order is the arrangement amoung component parts such that proper functioning or appearance is achieved. 15 billion years ago the components that make us and the world we live were not arranged so that we could exist. Those components are now arranged in such a way that we can and do exist. From a human prespective, the universe is more ordered today than it was 15 billion years ago. Going beyond the human prespective, at one time atoms did not exist in the universe. That means that for anything made of atoms the universe is more ordered now than it was at the start of the big bang. Stu
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#15
03-13-2005, 08:32 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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Order is the arrangement amoung component parts such that proper functioning or appearance is achieved. [/ QUOTE ] The universe has been functioning properly since the big bang. The existence (or non-existence) of humans doesn't matter. Does it? [ QUOTE ] 15 billion years ago the components that make us and the world we live were not arranged so that we could exist. Those components are now arranged in such a way that we can and do exist. From a human prespective, the universe is more ordered today than it was 15 billion years ago. [/ QUOTE ] Ah, okay. You're saying that the existence of humans DOES matter. So you are asserting that the proper functioning of the universe results in humans. Correct? Since... [ QUOTE ] Order is the arrangement amoung component parts such that proper functioning or appearance is achieved. [/ QUOTE ] How can you claim that the universe's goal is to make humans? Why can't humans just be another by-product of the big bang, like Jupiter and water and carbon and radiation? [ QUOTE ] Going beyond the human prespective, at one time atoms did not exist in the universe. That means that for anything made of atoms the universe is more ordered now than it was at the start of the big bang. [/ QUOTE ] I think I see what you are saying. You are EQUATING "existence" with "order." When I look up existence in the dictionary, will it read "existence: see order"... if not, should it?
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#16
03-13-2005, 09:48 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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The universe has been functioning properly since the big bang. [/ QUOTE ] How do we know the universe has achieved its ultimate proper function? Can you say what that ultimate proper function of the universe is? Right now it has a function to serve as a home for humans, but that was not always the case. Matter and energy had to be arranged or ordered for that to happen. From a human prespective, the universe is more ordered today than it was 15 billion years ago. [ QUOTE ] Why can't humans just be another by-product of the big bang, like Jupiter and water and carbon and radiation? [/ QUOTE ] I'm suggesting that the creation and arrangements of these components(humans, jupiter, water, carbon, etc) may be a necessary for the universe to achieve its ultimate function - whatever that may be. [ QUOTE ] I think I see what you are saying. You are EQUATING "existence" with "order." When I look up existence in the dictionary, will it read "existence: see order"... if not, should it? [/ QUOTE ] Existence is the state of being. Order is the process of arranging things that exist to provide function. You are confusing the two but they are completely different concepts. Stu
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#17
03-13-2005, 10:11 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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How do we know the universe has achieved its ultimate proper function? Can you say what that ultimate proper function of the universe is? [/ QUOTE ] The universe IS the function. Physics determines what happens in the universe. The laws of physics haven't changed, so how has the universe's "function" changed? [ QUOTE ] Right now it has a function to serve as a home for humans, but that was not always the case. [/ QUOTE ] The universe is the function. It's never "had the function" as "serving as a home for humans." The universe is the function, and humans are part of the function. A very very very very very tiny part of the function. [ QUOTE ] Matter and energy had to be arranged or ordered for that to happen. From a human prespective, the universe is more ordered today than it was 15 billion years ago. [/ QUOTE ] If the concept of entropy is correct, then there is less order in the universe than there was 15 billion years ago. Humans are cosmic debris on a smaller scale than Jupiter which is cosmic debris on a smaller scale than the solar system which is cosmic debris in an unfathomably large universe. This statement you keep repeating, "From a human perspective, the universe is more ordered today," is 100% meaningless. Humans exist today AND the universe has less order. Unless those silly scientists are dead wrong about singularities and entropy and such. [ QUOTE ] I'm suggesting that the creation and arrangements of these components(humans, jupiter, water, carbon, etc) may be a necessary for the universe to achieve its ultimate function - whatever that may be. [/ QUOTE ] The universe obeys the laws of physics, which haven't changed. Thus, the universe's function hasn't changed. Its components simply collide a whole bunch in a whole bunch of different ways, from the sub-molecular level to the astronomical level. Humans are a product of such collisions. [ QUOTE ] Existence is the state of being. Order is the process of arranging things that exist to provide function. You are confusing the two but they are completely different concepts. [/ QUOTE ] I could only come to the conclusion that you equate order with existence since you keep repeating that "there is order because there are humans" and "humans see order because they exist." Have you ever read Horton Hears a Who? I highly recommend it.
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#18
03-13-2005, 12:25 PM
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Re: God and order in the universe
we all about the physics/chem concept of entropy.
however when you are start looking at living organisms it gets a little tricky. living organisms fight entropy.
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#19
03-14-2005, 06:22 AM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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The universe IS the function. Physics determines what happens in the universe. The laws of physics haven't changed, so how has the universe's "function" changed? [/ QUOTE ] I believe your understanding about the workings of things is a bit flawed. First, following the laws of physics does not define a system's function. How a system is arranged (ordered) and the user of that system define its function. For example, I saw a man take a lawn mower and modify it so it would fly(pretty cool actually). The lawmower has never stopped obeying the laws of physics yet its function has changed from cutting grass to flying. The laws of physics have very little to do with defining a systems function. [ QUOTE ] This statement you keep repeating, "From a human perspective, the universe is more ordered today," is 100% meaningless [/ QUOTE ] Its not meaningless. The universe is a system that is being used by humans. Its function can certianly be defined from a human prespective. Since this whole subject is being debated by humans, the human perspective is the most material. [ QUOTE ] Humans are cosmic debris on a smaller scale than Jupiter which is cosmic debris on a smaller scale than the solar system which is cosmic debris in an unfathomably large universe. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I can change your thoughts on this matter. You look at the universe as nothing more than a debris field left over from the big bang. I see it as a vibrant evolving system. When you look at stars you see left over embers. I look at them as concentrators of usuable energy, components of a colossal system we call the universe. The universe is my home and from my prespective, it is a lot more ordered now than it was 15 billion years ago. Stu
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#20
03-14-2005, 02:06 PM
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Re: God and order in the universe
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The universe is a system that is being used by humans. [/ QUOTE ] I can't argue with your presumption that the universe is a gift to you-- that its "biggest function" is "to be used by humans." So I won't. I can only ask that you tell me why human cosmic debris is any more relevant than, say, Jupiter. From your logic, it would follow that the universe's function was to serve pre-humans before humans, pre-pre-humans before pre-humans, pre-pre-pre-humans before pre-pre-humans, and so on. As though humans are the center of the universe. You seem to be a Ptolemaic girl in a Copernican world. (gender for rhyming purposes only)
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