Hyper-agressive TT on the button?

BiffMan · #1 03-12-2005, 11:25 PM

Several places in this hand where I felt I was likely too aggressive and/or going for value bets that weren't really there, but I really struggle with a non-nut but strong hand (have trouble with the line between value betting and spewing chips), so let me know what you think:

Only been at the table for two orbits, but Villian is fairly standard TAG (25/8/1.7) and UTG+1 and MP2 are both fairly loose (40-50% VPIP) and have been playing pretty passively and seem to play way more like $.5/1 players.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB(Villian) caps, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Villian bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, Villian calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (17.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Villian bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, Villian 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero caps, Villian calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (34.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Villian bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero???

I'll put my thinking (such as it was) later in the thread since I didn't want to cloud anyone's interpretation of the hand.

Nick C · #2 03-12-2005, 11:57 PM

At some point, JJ becomes a concern, but I don't think you've overplayed the hand yet. Plus, you've got UTG+1 and MP2 padding the pot for you, for those times when BB does have you beat. (I mean, maybe MP2 has Q9 or 97 and is letting you and BB bet the hand for him. But I doubt it.) Sometimes you'll go on to lose when, for instance, someone with a 9 makes a straight, but I think you want bets going in on the turn.

All the same, there's a good chance I would just call the river. BB hasn't slowed down since failing to cap the flop, and I am worried at this point about JJ.

Shillx · #3 03-13-2005, 12:03 AM

At some point, JJ becomes a concern, but I don't think you've overplayed the hand yet. Plus, you've got UTG+1 and MP2 padding the pot for you, for those times when BB does have you beat.

This is the money concept. For anyone who does not understand why the key is to have people putting in dead money, you really should play some hi/lo stud or omaha.

Brad

toss · #4 03-13-2005, 12:19 AM

Quarter'D!

BiffMan · #5 03-13-2005, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At some point, JJ becomes a concern, but I don't think you've overplayed the hand yet. Plus, you've got UTG+1 and MP2 padding the pot for you, for those times when BB does have you beat.

This is the money concept. For anyone who does not understand why the key is to have people putting in dead money, you really should play some hi/lo stud or omaha.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the main reason I kept pushing since both of the other guys were hanging around and even though it was possible that one of them had me beat, there wasn't any way that more than one of them had me beat so it seemed like the pot equity was there to keep pressing and thank the guys in the middle for pouring money in.

As to the straight, based on the preflop play, I just couldn't see BB having Q9,97, or 76 after capping and not likely for UTG+1 since he led out with a raise, and while it was just barely possible that MP2 was calling along with Q9s, he cold called twice so that'd be an odd hand to do that with. But my feeling that the straight wasn't out there with UTG+1 or MP2 seems to be cemented by neither of them raising the river. I could see slowplaying and hiding out earlier, but not at that point.

I was really putting BB on a high pocket pair (hopefully higher than JJ, since that'd suck) since I could see him betting like that with an overpair and discounting the straight possibility for the same reasons I was.

ArturiusX · #6 03-13-2005, 02:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This is the money concept. For anyone who does not understand why the key is to have people putting in dead money, you really should play some hi/lo stud or omaha.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Omaha? *shivers*

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

ArturiusX · #7 03-13-2005, 02:43 AM

Also, is the 'dead money' concept to do with the fact you only need to be right 12.5% of the time, as opposed to 50% heads up in this scenario?

istewart · #8 03-13-2005, 02:46 AM

I believe that's what it is. For example, as Shill has said before in other threads, if you were HU on the turn you would definitely need to slow down.

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you Shill [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Nick C · #9 03-13-2005, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, is the 'dead money' concept to do with the fact you only need to be right 12.5% of the time, as opposed to 50% heads up in this scenario?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the money is exactly dead. Someone may have a 9, for instance.

But, yeah, what you've described is the general idea, I think (although the possibility of both Hero and BB getting outdrawn does screw up the 12.5% figure a little -- and, by the way, if it didn't, shouldn't the figure be 25%?).