What do you do against preflop tilters? - Page 3

spentrent · #21 03-12-2005, 10:27 PM

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Let someone else gamble with this maniac.

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Can we agree that the maniac is pushing a random hand?

If so, it's my (possibly naive) opinion that even the greatest SNG player in the universe should push a 65% edge.

SlapJack · #22 03-12-2005, 11:01 PM

you need to stop thinking that things aren't going to go your way and you will be outdrawn. You need to play the %'s and if you are a good player you will win in the long run.

elonkra · #23 03-13-2005, 01:14 AM

Ok, what facts do we have about the initial pusher?

He's loose preflop.
He chases too much.
Obviously, he's a bad player.

But what facts do we not have about the initial raiser?

How many times he's pushed preflop, if any.
How many times he's bet big preflop, if any.
In other words, whether the "loose preflop" characterization means (1) he's limping and calling small bets a lot; or (2) alternatively, he's aggressively raising a lot preflop.

In the second case, I'd undoubtedly call. But I'm not so sure that, w/AK, I'm calling off all my chips early in a tourney against a guy just limps and chases a lot when he goes all-in for the first time preflop. I also think it's interesting that it's widely considered a "good move" to limp w/AK early in a tourney yet it's apparently a great move to risk all of your chips with AK against a guy who very well might not have been agressive at all up to this point in time.

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but I think there's a really good chance this guy has a pair if he hasn't pushed or bet big yet.

Slim Pickens · #24 03-13-2005, 01:50 AM

I see absolutely no reason you shouldn't call. IMHO there is rarely a time to fold AK to an early push. The only hands you absolutely don't want to see are AA and KK. Now how often do bad low buy-in players push these pre-flop? My impression is never. You are a 45/55 dog against one class of hands, mid-to-low pocket pairs, that might make this play. You totally crush another large class, Ax. I don't know about you but there's no way I'm good enough to turn this down.

Slim

elonkra · #25 03-13-2005, 02:10 AM

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I see absolutely no reason you shouldn't call. IMHO there is rarely a time to fold AK to an early push. The only hands you absolutely don't want to see are AA and KK. Now how often do bad low buy-in players push these pre-flop? My impression is never. You are a 45/55 dog against one class of hands, mid-to-low pocket pairs, that might make this play. You totally crush another large class, Ax. I don't know about you but there's no way I'm good enough to turn this down.

Slim

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Couple of questions... Not arguing with you, just trying to flesh this out a little and figure out how badly I'm misplaying my preflop big slicks:

Question: Do you invariably reraise normal-sized preflop raises in ten-handed games when you're holding AK?

Question: When you make a normal-sized preflop raise w/AK preflop and someone behind you pushes, do you invariably call off all of your chips?

gh9801 · #26 03-13-2005, 02:33 AM

First, I mentioned in one of my responses that this was only the second time he moved allin preflop. The first time wasn't shown down but I was pretty sure the allin wasn't with a strong hand. For the most part, he was limping into pots.

It's not like I'm completely weak tight with AK preflop in sngs. In fact I like AK. I reraise a reasonable raise with it preflop almost all the time. I just don't like AK for 6/7th of my stack on the second level when I have nothing committed. Of course in later levels, I'm never even thinking about throwing it away. But in this situation, I felt that I might not need to push my decent but probably not overwhelming preflop advantage. My main question was whether it was worth it to gamble this early in the sng. I was just not happy with seeing his two live. The general consensus seemed to be to call based on who i was up against, that it was fine to gamble this early, and I agree. Just at the time I was iffy about it.

Now, if the person seemed competent but went mysteriously allin to win the 45 chip blinds, would you still make this call with AK? Probably not, right?

adanthar · #27 03-13-2005, 02:38 AM

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It's not like I'm completely weak tight with AK preflop in sngs. In fact I like AK. I reraise a reasonable raise with it preflop almost all the time. I just don't like AK for 6/7th of my stack on the second level when I have nothing committed. Of course in later levels, I'm never even thinking about throwing it away. But in this situation, I felt that I might not need to push my decent but probably not overwhelming preflop advantage.

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You're either up 2:1, 3:1, or a coinflip. Most likely, it's 1 or 2. The approximate average is 5:3.

You will very very rarely, and I mean very, find a better spot on average to double up with than as a 5:3 favorite.

Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

elonkra · #28 03-13-2005, 02:52 AM

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Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

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Another question: I've read very little, but one of the books I've read, by McEvoy and Daugherty, suggests folding AK preflop early in a tourney when there is a normal-sized raise and a call into you, specifically because you have nothing invested and there is no need to get involved. Maybe I'm mistaken, and the example involved a situation where you have a raise and a reraise into you. I don't have the book with me, so I'm not 100% certain. Whatever the case, I know reference was made to the justification for folding being the fact that you have nothing invested. Just bad wording by the author?

spentrent · #29 03-13-2005, 03:09 AM

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Having 'nothing committed' is a very common beginner's fallacy. It doesn't matter what you have in the pot or don't have; it matters if you can find a better edge later. You can't, so call.

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I need to write this down so I don't forget it. Thanks!

Slim Pickens · #30 03-13-2005, 03:10 AM

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I've read very little, but one of the books I've read, by McEvoy and Daugherty, suggests folding AK preflop early in a tourney when there is a normal-sized raise and a call into you, specifically because you have nothing invested and there is no need to get involved.

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I haven't read this book so I'm not commenting on its quality, but...

1) This example seems to involve a multiway pot... big difference.

2) I have a book by Ken Warren where he says he'd rather be dealt AK than AA, so you can't believe everything you read. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Slim