AK flops top pair on a 3 flush board - advice needed

[remen]

This hand is from the Pokerstars afternoon 5.50 + rebuy tournament. The rebuy period is over and I had my tabled moved about 30 minutes ago. My table image was very tight, as I was playing very tight due to the table being full of call stations and LAGs. This is the first hand I have played in about 10 minutes. Both villains in this hand were extremely loose preflop seing over half of the flops for any amount. The CO was pretty much a call station post flop, he rarely raised. The button was pretty aggressive postflop. I am fairly sure the CO was on a flush draw. The button could have any king, KQ, a made flush, a flush draw, or a total bluff. Would you have played it any differently up to the flop and how would you react to the buttons flop raise?

The hand:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO (t45549)
Button (t34161)
SB (t11045)
BB (t47707)
Hero (t22531)
UTG+1 (t16265)
MP1 (t14685)
MP2 (t9985)
MP3 (t18265)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1200</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls t1200, Button calls t1200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t3800) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t4000</font>, CO calls t4000, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t8400</font>, Hero ?.

[LethalRose]

do you have button and CO noted as playing any suited?

your table image can work against you, once a player identifies you as a solid player who will play aggressively when they think they are ahead will call raises like this with deep stacks and hope you catch while they make a hand better than top pair.


with 2 other people the odds of 1 of them having 2 spades isnt too good, but after seeing the betting i think you're probably beat here, however some players with the Ace of spades make this same play hoping to spike another spade for the nut flush.

very tough situation, id lay it down and get my money in when i know im a bigger favorite(keyword bigger). I think sometimes its better to lay down hands like this where you might be a favorite, but against 2 people I dont want to risk another spade coming on later streets. one of them could easily have KQ here as well.

you're in no danger of getting blinded out, lay it down and wait for them to make a mistake vs you preflop and make them pay.

[remen]

Anyone else have any input? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[baumer]

i think your bet on the flop was too big.

pot is 3800 right?
the stacks are big enough you can play this hand a little slower.
id bet around 2000-2500 to see how they react.
this position sucks, but your hand is a pretty good one right now, and this bet will get you more (or atleast as much) information than a giant pot sized bet.
these guys were loose you said so the possiblity of the flush is already there, and they might want to see more cards for cheap.

if you had bet 2500 and it went call, raise i probably still would have folded, simply because the caller may still raise if he flopped a flush.
just would have saved you 1500 for the exact same information.

i used to think potsized bets were the way to go, but Harrington on Hold'em has changed my tourneys.

* - if they had both just called your bet on the flop, even if only one of them had a flush draw, the second caller would still have only been getting 3.3 to 1 (2500 for 8800)or so on his flush draw, so they are both making mistakes if they call
(also, it is easy to fold when there are 4 to a flush and you had TPTK, so implied odds are out of the question)

[remen]

I think the converter missed the antes because the pot was 4200 or so on the flop. I usually bet between 1/2-2/3 of the pot but in this case I knew that if either player had the flush draw they would call pretty much regardless of my bet. I wanted to charge the maximum without committing myself to the hand. I also wanted to build the pot because I planned on pushing any non spade turn if only called on the flop.

[baumer]

if your pushing on the turn into 2 callers, are you sure they didn't just call on the flop with the flush, or even the nut flush.
if you plan on pushing on the turn, you may as well push on the flop since they will call regardless, and you will be beat by any flopped flush regardless.

the possiblity of the flush raising on the flop to make higher flush draws pay is out there obviously, but its pretty hard to put someone on a flopped flush, which is why you should build the pot slower rather than faster.

if the flush is out there and you bet 2.5k-3k at this flop and you are raised its a tough call between calling/folding

but given the past aggression of these two, id be willing to continue the hand to see what they did when a flush card didnt hit on the turn, and obviously if it did hit a checkfold is in order.

the toughest thing to do would be to bet out into the board on the turn, after being raised on the flop, because if you both check (or all three check) a free card could destroy your hand.

play this hand strongly against laggy competition and hope they didnt flop a monster.

[remen]

[ QUOTE ]
if you plan on pushing on the turn, you may as well push on the flop since they will call regardless, and you will be beat by any flopped flush regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said they would call on the flop with a flush draw regardless of my bet I meant they would call any bet that wasn't too much more than the pot...I should have specified that. If I pushed the flop I believe the only hands that would have called me that I beat was KJ. A push on the flop is terrible as I am risking so many chips in relation to the size of the pot when I will pretty much only be called by hands that beat me.

[ QUOTE ]
if your pushing on the turn into 2 callers, are you sure they didn't just call on the flop with the flush, or even the nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

If just called on the flop, I believe it is much more likely that they are on a flush draw than a flopped flush. The button would raise me on the flop if he had a flush unless it was the nut flush. Obviously I can't be sure that I am ahead if just called on the flop, but I believe protecting my hand would be more important than worrying about a slowplayed flush on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
but given the past aggression of these two, id be willing to continue the hand to see what they did when a flush card didnt hit on the turn, and obviously if it did hit a checkfold is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe calling is definitely the worst option here. If I just call and a non flush card hits the turn I am in a terrible spot. I still don't know where I am in the hand and it could cost a lot more chips to find out. I was pretty sure if I called and came out betting at the turn the button would raise all in. If I called and checked the turn he would probably put me to a decision for all my chips. In both of those cases I probably have to fold and I obviously have to fold if the 4th flush card hits. It seems like calling on the flop would just be throwing chips away.

[baumer]

ok, in your exact situation i agree with folding to the raise on the flop.

most of my analysis was an attempt to support my initial response of betting smaller on the flop.

if you bet big like this a lot some players will pick up on the fact you will:
a) fold to a minraise to a potsized bet with XX hand
b) call a minraise to a potsized bet with XX hand

both pieces of information that could be used against you

by making your decisions so clearcut on the flop players can take advantage of your decisions.

my point being by betting smaller and gathering more information, you will be surer about your decision to either finish the hand or fold the hand.

a lot of hands are decided on the flop but this shouldn't be one of them. too many times you may be ahead.
Also to see a turn card it would cost you less if:

a) he just called a small bet, then you get to see a turn card
b) he minraised the flop, then you called to see a turn card
c) he raised 1.5x-2x minraise, then you fold, saving 1500 to a fold on 4000 bet.