Pushing back with an overpair - Page 2

soah · #11 03-12-2005, 01:55 AM

16 is not a very big raise. Although at first I didn't realize that MP was a poster rather than a limper. Not sure how much of a difference that should make.

If you put him on a bluff and scare cards come, then what's wrong with just check-calling again? The way you played it any better hand and any draw will call you, so you are committed to going broke if those scare cards come. But without a read there isn't really any correct answer for what to do here.

edge · #12 03-12-2005, 02:22 AM

If he's semi-bluffing with a draw and I check the turn, he gets a free card and can save the extra 100 if he misses the river. I think I want to get all-in against a semi-bluffing draw on the flop out of position.

I think I confused myself, but it makes sense to me.

Spekkio · #13 03-12-2005, 03:11 AM

There is plenty of value in pushing back against a bluff or semi bluff.

Say flop comes Qd, Jd, 4d

You hold AdJc

Your opponent bets out into this pot (you know he is bluffing cuz he ALWAYS slow plays big hands, plus you have the A of diamonds).

So...he could have AQ. You call, you are still losing. He may continue his bluff, or he may check to the river (in which case your hand loses unless it improves). If you re-raise all-in, he must fold, and you win.

There is no calling against bluffs. It's either re-raise all-in, or fold. If you can't re-raise with confidence that he's bluffing, then you must fold.

soah · #14 03-12-2005, 03:14 AM

That didn't make any sense. Betting with TPTK is not bluffing.

edge · #15 03-12-2005, 03:31 AM

Ok, let me think this over then. There are three classes of hands villian can be holding in this situation: made hand (I have no chance), semi-bluff draw (I'm ahead), pure bluff (I win). Against a made hand, I obviously want to fold here. If he's semi-bluffing, I want to push here, so he can't get a free card on the turn. If he's bluffing, the optimal play by me would be to call, then check/call the turn and river to induce a follow-up bluff.

From another angle, if I call here, I would want to fold the turn against a made hand, push/fold against a draw (depending on the turn card), and check against a bluff. If I push, a made hand and a draw both call me, and the bluff folds.

Since the board has draws all over it, I think it's quite possible that he's semi-bluffing, and I definitely want to push the flop against a semi-bluff. Since I can't tell the three hands apart on the turn, and I have to either push or check/call a safe card and check/fold a bad one, I want to push the flop against a bluff as well.

I think this is kind of interesting. Obviously I can't go around folding an overpair to a low drawy board every time I get raised, because a lot of players in 2/4 6-max will put a raiser on missed high cards and bluff-raise, but I can't play it hard every time either. With these stack sizes, I can't rationalize a call on the flop--I think it's push or fold here. With deeper stacks, it becomes a lot more difficult.

soah · #16 03-12-2005, 03:39 AM

I think my problem is that I don't have much of a feel for how often a typical player in that game will show up with each type of hand.

I want to clarify though - was this his first hand at the table? He sat down and posted two seats before the BB? And then proceeded to call a raise? This right away leads me to believe he's a gamboooling donk. He's probably too clueless to understand wtf a semi-bluff is. I really don't believe that many lower-stakes players do it very often. If I had to take a guess here, I'd say he has some ragged nine and sucked out on you. Which basically contradicts what I said earlier in the thread, because I hadn't realized at first that he was a poster and that you hadn't seen him even play a hand yet. And if this is his first hand, then he bought in for a pretty strange amount which is even more of a clue that he could be a mega-fish.

Chaostracize · #17 03-12-2005, 03:48 AM

I agree with you here, soah.

Much bigger preflop raise. Maybe even check that flop, I don't think leading out gets the most out of this hand when you're ahead, and if you can't get away from the hand when raised, then you definitely need to not lead out.

When you're heads up you need to be much less afraid of those "draws". It's a small chance you're up against a flush draw or straight draw. This board is coordinated, but not overly so, you can get a lot more information with a check here than you can with a bet, especially with your minimal preflop raised which almost seemed to beg for a call.

tree_stump · #18 03-12-2005, 04:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That didn't make any sense. Betting with TPTK is not bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's calling it a semi-bluff because the example was second pair with an A kicker and a diamond draw.

soah · #19 03-12-2005, 04:10 AM

He said his opponent had AQ, and three times referred to that as bluffing.

edge · #20 03-12-2005, 04:22 AM

The converted kind of wrecked the preflop. I don't believe he posted here--I think he limped, SB completed, then I raised it to 16.

Anyway, he was holding T7, so I took this one, but I don't expect to be so lucky every time. On this board, where JT (a very possible hand) has a big draw, and a spade can't make me too happy, I don't like risking the flop being checked through. I know I bet the flop too much after raising preflop, since it worked far too often in the old 1/2 $100 game, but I think I definitely want to bet this one.