T9s from MP

rabman · #1 03-11-2005, 10:40 PM

2nd hand after posting the CO.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Do you call here with no limpers?

Flop: (4 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

I liked this flop lots of outs. Started the betting to build the pot.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB raises, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

No free card. I had the odds to call here.

River: (12 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

hate · #2 03-11-2005, 10:43 PM

Dude, you've got like a quadrillion outs. 3-way you should be betting this for value on the turn. This board's kind of nasty for your upper on the straight draw, but I'm still betting this.

Saying you don't chop with another T, you've got 15 outs. Say you do chop. 13.5 outs. Bet the turn.

jaxUp · #3 03-11-2005, 10:46 PM

not crazy about the pf play, but it's not too bad. 9Ts is great multiway, but in SH play, if you can outplay your opponents postflop, it's not bad.

Good flop bet.

Good turn check.

Good turn cold call.

Good river fold.

So, basically, good hand.

jaxUp · #4 03-11-2005, 10:51 PM

Hmmmm......you could actually bet/raise this turn with an equity edge. Here's the only problem:

You don't have a very high flush. I discount from 9 to 7 or 8 outs for the spades + 6 for the str8. so we'll say 13.5 outs.

Against 2 opponents it's not enough to go nuts with, but against 3 you could proably do some business.

hate · #5 03-11-2005, 10:54 PM

That's a terrible way to operate with a flush draw. If you discount because of a higher flush draw, your value betting suffers, and the possibilities of flush over flush is minimal, simply because if you've both got the same suit which is very unlikely anyway, you've got a much smaller chance of even hitting your flush.

Random hand's possibility of both having the same suit when the flush draw hits, 1.8%. Chance of you missing out bets because you're weakly playing flush draws imagining domination, 100%.

Isura · #6 03-11-2005, 10:54 PM

3-bet the turn. You're better than 33% to make a straight or flush on the river and you have 4 people in the hand, meaning you have more than enough pot equity here. Rest is fine.

jaxUp · #7 03-11-2005, 10:56 PM

Are you talking about value betting the draw, or value betting when you make your flush? sorry.

hate · #8 03-11-2005, 11:00 PM

I'm talking about value betting the draw. You get overflushed, so be it. You can't discount your flush outs just because T high has overcards. You'll know when you're owned by some jackass playing A2s.

jaxUp · #9 03-11-2005, 11:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about value betting the draw. You get overflushed, so be it. You can't discount your flush outs just because T high has overcards. You'll know when you're owned by some jackass playing A2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think discounting outs is very important, but I WAY WAY over-discounted here. I think I should have discounted to like 8.75 , basically making no difference in the way the hand is played.

hate · #10 03-12-2005, 12:43 AM

The thing is with flush draws, just like set over set, is that you can't operate like "oh, 22 is discounted because a set of 3s could beat me". The fact of the matter is that flush over flush and set over set happen so rarely that to discount your playing style because of them is counterproductive and costs you more than those bad beats ever will. If you look at the immediate odds, you'll find that every pocket pair from 77 down has about the same equity.