EPT Vienna hand

[Martin Aigner]

Cool event we have this year. 297 entries, way the biggest field ever at the E-WSOP and the biggest so far for an EPT event.

We all start with 10k, blinds 25-50, limits go up every 75 minutes. I´m completly carddead, but for the last couple of months I´ve really gotten used to it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, being carddead in this event isn´t that bad since you really have enough chips to play some holdings you wouldn´t otherwise. But this can lead into trouble too, as it did in this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Blinds are 50-100 (3rd level), and I just got to this table 2 rounds ago. No special reads, but button has a big stack (about 25k) and seems to use it agessively. No showdown so far on this table, mostly the typical flopbet takes it.

So I´m UTG and see the monster 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I decide to limp for 100 (I have a 14k stack, but my best hand so far preflop was K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and therefore, after almost 3 hours, 43s doesn´t look that bad), and so do 6 others, Pot 700.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Both blinds check, I think about betting representing a huge preflop hand, but against 6 players this is hardly a good idea. To my surprise everybody else checkes too.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Everybody checks to the button, who bets 500. Blinds muck and I think about the situation. After some time I decide to call for these reasons:

1) I hope that I can win with any 3, 4, 5
2) If nobody calls behind me I count any [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] as additional outs (= representing the flush if it hits)
3) My stack can afford it if I´m wrong and get called in the number 2 scenario.
4) The players behind me to act don´t seem too interested in the pot.

For these reasons I call, but unfortunatlely a MP calls too, who I´m pretty sure has a flushdraw. Which one I don´t know, but rather guess [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], since he might have bet the flop with a flushdraw (+ overcards) and 2 cards to come.

River: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet 700, thinking that this might get the button to call if he has an A. MP mucks as expected, but the button raises to 3500. What´s the play here? What hand do you put him on?

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[Morbo]

Easy call. I have a hard time putting the button on any hand he would raise with here, perhaps a missed flush draw? A4? He would surely bet a set on the flop 7-handed, perhaps he has a better 4.

There is no value however in reraising, he would not call with a hand that you beat.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

The main hand I'm worried about here is A4. 35 is also a concern. Any other hand that has you beat, I expect him to bet the flop unless he's a genius or a moron, and most likely a moron.

However, having said that, I'm not sure I can call here. It seems likely enough he has you beat to make the laydown possibly correct. I would have to go with my read of the player here, wondering if he could have AK and honestly think his raise is with the best hand. That would be my main concern with folding, is him not really understanding how weak a strong A is right now.

This scenario is part of the reason I would often check-and-call with your hand. A bet by you doesn't get called by a worse hand all that often, but those worse hands will often still bet the river behind you. And when they raise like this, it's hard for you to put them on a hand, because the preflop and flop were not raised/bet.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
This scenario is part of the reason I would often check-and-call with your hand. A bet by you doesn't get called by a worse hand all that often, but those worse hands will often still bet the river behind you. And when they raise like this, it's hard for you to put them on a hand, because the preflop and flop were not raised/bet.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never have thought to take this line on the river (check and call), but this logic makes perfect sense. This is why this forum is so useful.

[Martin Aigner]

Thanks guys, I can see both arguments, as all of them occured to me at the time. But finally I went with Morbo and called for the following reasons:

1) Against 6 players the button would definetly not check a set, unless he was a lunatic, so my only concern of a full house is A4.

2) I couldn´t see a straight raise me when the board pairs and a player bets out.

3) What can he put me on? Any 4 would be rather unlikely, since I was UTG, so he might very well put me on a busted flushdraw and therefore on a hand which can neither win a showdown against Aces up nor stand a raise. So if he had a busted flushdraw too it´s quite possible that he raises me, expecting me to be on a steal.

So after taking all these things into considerations I called and really expected to win the hand something like 70%, and being up against A4 the other 30%. I was wrong though, he showed me 53 for the turned straight and a raise for value (or a dumb raise, which turned out to be a genial move)

So much for my hand reading sklílls [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks anyway. After I lost that pot I thought a long time about the hand, and at the end of the day I wasn´t sure whether I just made a dumb play or a legitimitate one.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[ClaytonN]

Please make more posts like this

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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This scenario is part of the reason I would often check-and-call with your hand. A bet by you doesn't get called by a worse hand all that often, but those worse hands will often still bet the river behind you. And when they raise like this, it's hard for you to put them on a hand, because the preflop and flop were not raised/bet.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)


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I would never have thought to take this line on the river (check and call), but this logic makes perfect sense. This is why this forum is so useful

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

I see your reasoning, but I really doubt that a bet for value has to be a -EV in this situation. Could you please explain in detail?

IMHO the pros for my bet are:

- The pot was 2200 big, and I bet a third of the pot, which I thought was an amount an A would call with (maybe even a KQs), since there were two busted flush draws possible. I honestly would think about calling with KQs in this scenario on the button, though this doesn´t mean that I have to call. But for me this would be no automatic muck at all.

- If I check I have no information at all about the other player, and I hoped to gain information. Obviously I got information but interpreted them falsely, but if I checked a bet of potsize would have been a tougher call for me than the call I finally made, since I couldn´t rule out the straight. Now I know this sounds dumb, since I ruled out exactly the hand I was finally beaten by, but lets just pretend this was not the special guy from yesterday, but the average guy playing in this event. I guess that 90% of the players in a 2k buy in event wouldn´t raise with the straight here, but bet if it´s checked to them. Am I so wrong here?

BTW: Anyone thinks the call on the turn is a bad one?

Best regards

Martin Aigner