Ray Zee says I'm too loose. He might be on to something...

[FrankTheTank]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>,


Here’s a link to Ray Zee's excellent article on the stages of a poker player. As you can probably tell, I’m squarely in the middle of the “too loose” stage, and need help finding my way out. We've all been there, we start consistently winning playing tight aggressive poker like good little boys, and then the floodgates open. J9s utg. 3 betting middle position raises with K10. Suddenly all your marginal (and some downright bad) holdings see the light of day because "they're probably on a steal" and "I can outplay them after the flop" and even that old standby, “for variance.” Sklansky would be spinning in his grave (if he was dead). Then it happens. One day you open your PokerTracker. You notice your winrate dropping. All those okay-but-not-great hands that were once churning out a modest profit are becoming losers, the J9s, the 97s, my god even the KJo. You’ve done it. You’ve become a donkey.

This is my story.

I’ve been a winning poker player for some time now from 1/2 to 100/200, thanks mostly to these forums and the 2+2 books. So thanks. The problem is, the amazing Party 15 games tricked me into believing I’m a much better player than I really am. A recent downswing of over 350 bb’s has kinda burst that bubble, but, on the bright side, has me re-evaluating my game at its most basic levels.

Here’s some short questions that I’m sure are pretty cut and dry for most of the winning players here, but, like I said, I need to restructure my game at the most basic level.

For all questions, assume a typical Party 15 game (loose and very aggressive), 9-10 handed. What is your action assuming unknown opponents?

1. Q10s utg. What if you had 77?
2. 3 folds, you’re next to act with KJo. If you said fold, when do you start openraising this, if you do? A9o? J9o?
3. utg raises, folded to you in the bb with A10o. A9o? K10s? How does the number of callers influence your decision?
4. Cutoff openraises, you’re the button with K10o. J9s? 89s?
5. utg limps, you’re next with A Jo? K10s? 910s?

More generally, what are considered optimal VPIP %, PFR %, and aggression factors for these games, keeping in mind the 2/3 structure? I know these are a lot of basic questions, and I realize that these preflop debates aren’t nearly as important discussing postflop play, but I feel a need to reevaluate my game from the ground up, and have encountered a surprising variance in answers when I asked these questions to several winning players.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[goofball]

1. Q10s is a fold, 77 is usually a raise. If i'm ever going to limp UTG it would be there though.

2. KJo is a fold until LMP I think, then it's a raise. A9o is a fold before the CO maybe once in a while the hijack J9o everywhere but the button except for a once in a great while from teh cutoff. I've had to tighten up with J9 quite a bit this year because it sucks.

3. utg raises, folded to you in the bb with A10o. A9o? K10s? How does the number of callers influence your decision?
Depends greatly on UTGs GT+ numbers. If i see he is solid then A9 is definetly a fold, I'm still not sure how I feel about ATo and I usually call with KTs.

4. 3bet with KTo unless CO is very tight, J9s and 98s are player dependent.

5. raise AJo, limp KTs, limp T9s (the last one is a fold if UTG had folded)

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Q10s is a fold, 77 is usually a raise. If i'm ever going to limp UTG it would be there though.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a good game I usually limp with both of those.

[ QUOTE ]
2. KJo is a fold until LMP I think, then it's a raise. A9o is a fold before the CO maybe once in a while the hijack J9o everywhere but the button except for a once in a great while from teh cutoff. I've had to tighten up with J9 quite a bit this year because it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising KJo and folding the other two. That's the earliest I'll raise KJo. I start to raise A9o in probably the hijack depending on who's on my left. J9o pretty much just on the button, maybe in the CO from time to time.

[ QUOTE ]
3. utg raises, folded to you in the bb with A10o. A9o? K10s? How does the number of callers influence your decision?
Depends greatly on UTGs GT+ numbers. If i see he is solid then A9 is definetly a fold, I'm still not sure how I feel about ATo and I usually call with KTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold fold fold. HU against a UTG raiser out of position with a likely dominated hand is not a good spot. With more callers I'd call with the KTs, fold the others.


[ QUOTE ]
4. 3bet with KTo unless CO is very tight, J9s and 98s are player dependent.

5. raise AJo, limp KTs, limp T9s (the last one is a fold if UTG had folded)

[/ QUOTE ]

I play pretty much the same way, but lean towards folding the J9s and 98s. I also will often raise with the KTs in #5.

[goofball]

yeah, AT sucks. I'm definietly workign on reducing the amount of the time I have to play a marginal hand out of position. Usually it's almost physically painful.

[Lestat]

Since I'm seeking help with the Party 15 game it might be good for me to respond and let others tell me where I might be going wrong pre-flop.

<font color="red"> "1. Q10s utg. What if you had 77? </font>

Muck QTs and limp with 77. When the sevens are a diamond and spade and the Q is a spade and the ten is a diamond, I raise with either hand.

<font color="red">"2. 3 folds, you’re next to act with KJo. If you said fold, when do you start openraising this, if you do? A9o? J9o?" </font>

I fold KJo. I start thinking about opening with it in middle-middle and definitely from late middle and it's always for a raise. I don't play A9o except from late position and then only to isolate a weakie or to steal the blinds. I guess it's not really a steal, but if they both fold I'm not gonna complain. J9o?? Only in very rare spots. If you mucked this piece of cheese every time for the rest of your life you wouldn't miss any meals cuz of it.

<font color="red">"3. utg raises, folded to you in the bb with A10o. A9o? K10s? How does the number of callers influence your decision?" </font>

Against a solid UTG raise I'm probably mucking all those hands heads-up. I'll play the AT and the KTs if one other player comes in.

<font color="red">"4. Cutoff openraises, you’re the button with K10o. J9s? 89s?" </font>

Against a real LAG I'll 3-bet the KT, but still muck the J9s or 89s. Ironically, I might 3-bet the J9s, or 89s against a tightish player who I have good control over. This is mainly to mix it up and is also dependent on who is in the blinds.

<font color="red">"5. utg limps, you’re next with A Jo? K10s? 910s?" </font>

I'll limp with the AJo and look for reasons to play the KTs against typical Party competition. The game would have to be really ripe for me to play T9s from here though.

[AceHigh]

All these situations are close, 'cept maybe the ATo in the blind. If I was struggling I would avoid the close calls and fold all these hands. You are better off playing too tight than too loose.

Think about hands like QTs in early position, they are probably marginal winners for the best players, it can't hurt your winrate much to dump them and it could help a whole lot.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
When the sevens are a diamond and spade and the Q is a spade and the ten is a diamond, I raise with either hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

do you think you're playing (and making money) off of people who will worry about your UTG raising requirements? raising QTs is a mistake in this spot almost every time. raising 77 is usually something i dont do. 88 is my cutoff and if its a real loose game i limp with it too. but if a 7 is a diamond that changes nothing in the value of the ahnd. if the QT is QsTs then it is the exact same hand as QdTd...period...i raise none of my QTs hands utg...limp with em most of the time and fold them against a bad line up...

-Barron

[TStoneMBD]

he obviously knows that the suits of the cards dont chance the value of the hand, but i think he chose those suits to have a set game theory that is not readable by the other players. he doesnt suddenly say to himself, "im gonna switch gears, ill raise UTG with a hand id limp with or consider folding instead." instead he has certain suits that triggers a raise instead of a limp/fold. i think sklansky discussed this in his theory of poker book.

i personally dont use this system at all, as ive never seen anyone implement it well, and it just seems to be a waste of money, but i am intrigued none the less. another good reason to have game theory based on suits of cards is that it helps prevent you from tilting, as it limits your options when making borderline decisions, and instead he has set starting hand requirements.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
he obviously knows that the suits of the cards dont chance the value of the hand, but i think he chose those suits to have a set game theory that is not readable by the other players. he doesnt suddenly say to himself, "im gonna switch gears, ill raise UTG with a hand id limp with or consider folding instead." instead he has certain suits that triggers a raise instead of a limp/fold. i think sklansky discussed this in his theory of poker book.

i personally dont use this system at all, as ive never seen anyone implement it well, and it just seems to be a waste of money, but i am intrigued none the less. another good reason to have game theory based on suits of cards is that it helps prevent you from tilting, as it limits your options when making borderline decisions, and instead he has set starting hand requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know all of this...

my point was that it makes absolutely no sense to use game theory preflop under the gun vs. these players.

-Barron

[Shang Chou]

This is an interesting post and after I read it, it really got me thinking. I often times struggle with questions like Q10 suited or 77 UTG? or KJoff in MP after its been folded to me, do i raise or fold or call? Very subtle aspects of the game but to be honest, upon further thought, all this stuff falls under the category of "depends." If I was running good and winning a bunch of pots, I will raise 77 in EP or play that KJoff out of position with people to act behind me. If I am stuck a ton and constantly showing down the 2nd best hand, I might think twice and usually fold.

If my table is a bunch of old nits who think AJoff is a fold unless you are in LP and its an unraised pot, I might get fresh and raise some garbage hand. But if it is a 2+2 private game on party I am sure as hell either folding or getting ready to cap it up with that hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

While, I never have played as high as 100/200, I am of the opinion that EVEN limit poker is a somewhat "people's game."

I can see how NL is a peoples game where you are playing the other person more than the cards but there are definitely times when how you are running and how others perceive you determines how you should play your hands.

I know that it is a general 2+2/S&amp;M/Ed Miller thing that raising A10suited out of the SB when its been called around is THE correct thing to do. But I dont really think I would make that play unless my table image was very very good and I was on some sort of absurd rush.

Meh...I dunno. Just my two cents.