3 betting with 22-66 at higher limits - Page 2

J.A.Sucker · #11 03-09-2005, 03:01 PM

I think a better play is often to call 2 bets cold, especially near the button or on it. You should also mix this up with a few other hands, which I know you can figure out. If you are headsup, then great. If the blinds/button tag along, then great.

I can tell you a worse play is to play these small pairs up front yourself, though. You get isolated with a cold-call or three bet too often by good players.

theBruiser500 · #12 03-09-2005, 04:03 PM

This is pretty obvious, but seems like the most salient point here to me. The advantage of getting HU vs. two overcards is small compared to the bad situations that can occur from 3 bet isolating, and these bad situatoins aren't infrequent. Getting capped from behind, and getting capped from the guy you're isolating and finding yourself up against a higher pair or being bluffed out even when they just have overcards on a board like TJx where you can't do anything.

antifish225 · #13 03-09-2005, 05:45 PM

I think this is an excellent move, if used selectivly, especially in live action games if you have a very solid table image....assuming it is UTG or UTG+1 raising and you are next to act you really have a 3-bet or fold decision as you do not want to take your mini-pair into a field - the more solid your table image the more likley that this isolation play will work......I use this move very selectivly if a few circumstances are present; (a) The original raiser is predicatble and I can put them on big cards AND the original rasier will most likley only CAP with a big pair and call with two unpaired big cards, (b) the blinds and remaining LP's are tight players who will likley not call cold unless they have a very premium hand, (c) My table image is solid (I generally have a very solid table image, when I thre bet most of the table will be putting me on a big pair). If you have a looser table image I think this will be a much harder play to make as condition b is vital to make this play work....jmho (and 80% of my play is live, so no real opinion as to how this would differ in the P15 game as I only play infrequently)...

Michael Davis · #14 03-09-2005, 05:47 PM

After a recent post I made when I responded somewhat churlishly to Mason's post, I did go back and reread Feeney. I suspect many high limit players are overusing this play, just as I was (at much lower limits). However, since openraising standards tend to be lower in the big games, perhaps it's a better play there.

-Michael

mach3 · #15 03-09-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Me too. For about a week this was a very good play to make on party poker, people were giving a lot more respect to you if you open raised from teh CO and capped when the blind 3bet then if you just called the 3bet. Now it's gotten so everyone and their mother is making this play. As always, when you find yourself in the majority it's time to pause and reflect.

I've also noticed a lot of people not capping only their premium hands the last couple of days. I think the good thing to do for now is to move back to value capping. People won't believe you when you cap and might just actually giveyou more credit then you deserive if you just call the 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent observations - at least for Party 15/30. I remember seeing this for the first time and thinking it was somewhat clever. Now people are capping w/ low PP's left and right from LP. Ditto for the second part as well.

elmo · #16 03-09-2005, 06:54 PM

Assuming a tight image, I feel like full games that have become short recently offer some of the most appropriate opportunities to make this play.

Nate tha' Great · #17 03-09-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty obvious, but seems like the most salient point here to me. The advantage of getting HU vs. two overcards is small compared to the bad situations that can occur from 3 bet isolating, and these bad situatoins aren't infrequent. Getting capped from behind, and getting capped from the guy you're isolating and finding yourself up against a higher pair or being bluffed out even when they just have overcards on a board like TJx where you can't do anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not thinking like a limit player yet.

kurosh · #18 03-09-2005, 07:27 PM

See the post I made a while ago about cold-calling with mid to low pairs against EP raisers. Mathematically, it's -EV but I didn't take into account position.

bugstud · #19 03-09-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think a better play is often to call 2 bets cold, especially near the button or on it. You should also mix this up with a few other hands, which I know you can figure out. If you are headsup, then great. If the blinds/button tag along, then great.

I can tell you a worse play is to play these small pairs up front yourself, though. You get isolated with a cold-call or three bet too often by good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your play is quite a bit better play live than online

Softrock · #20 03-09-2005, 10:55 PM

Paluka - I'm probably echoing some of what a number of people have said. At mid-limits I find a number of people who make this play way too often. The thinking seems to be some form of "I'm supposed to be aggressive" plus a "pocket pair is a favorite over two overcards". As has been pointed out though a pokcet pair is only a small favorite against overcards and a big dog against a bigger pocket pair. Furthermore, this hand is hard to play of you get 2 or 3 overcards on the flop. I see some players who just call down to the river no matter what.

My approach is to make them pay when I hit my hand and selectively represent an A or K or even Q when one hits the board. I believe I make money if I have AK or AQ and get 3-bet by 66 because I know when I've hit my hand and my opponent doesn't.