Overplayed, unlucky, or both?

[Josh W]

Andy -

In almost all situations in poker, when we've been actively involved in a hand,
we can dream up some hand that we are ahead of. The question, on the river, becomes,
is the pot large enough to merit a call?

After the button 3-bets the flop, we put him on the same range of hands. Note that this includes
hands that, on the river, we beat.

All that we know about the button is that he is NOT passive. Have you ever threebet from the button with second pair
(i.e. AJ or KJ in this situation?). I know that I have, maybe too much...especially after raising preflop.

And, what about KK?

The problem with what you think I'm about to say, is, of course, if he has these hands, why the turn raise?

The move that was fairly ingenious 12 months ago is becoming routine at many games....raise the turn
with position if you are committed to call your opponent down. Granted a good player won't feel committed
to call down in this situation with KJ or KK, but they certainly can't fold on the turn in what is turning out
to be a very large pots (capped action creates those, ya know [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ). And, to my way of thinking, there is a
good enough chance that he's raising the turn, hoping for a free showdown. Of course, he'd be a fool to bet
river with KJ or KK, of course.

But, when you throw in the additional chance that he may have a flush draw or a missed straight draw (T9,
AT, or such), I think I have to call the river bet, as I'd be getting something like 14:1 or 15:1 (the original poster
never says outright how many people saw the flop).

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And this is coming from somebody who dearly likes watermelon!!

Josh W

[drewjustdrew]

"Have you ever threebet from the button with second pair
(i.e. AJ or KJ in this situation?). I know that I have, maybe too much...especially after raising preflop."

This sounds like an enormous leak in your game. You don't have to win every pot. If I raise pre-flop and it is a bet and a raise before it gets to me, I am out of there a vast majority of the time unless I have better draws than just an overcard with my 2nd pair. Even though some of the times I would actually be ahead, it isn't worth it.

Sounds like you are misinterpreting the advantage of having the button. It doesn't make your cards any stronger. The value in having the button in this situation is knowing that you are behind with some certainty and can fold knowing that you made the right decision.

[Josh W]

First and foremost, let me say that it very likely is a leak in my game. Secondly, let me say that I don't do this all that often...maybe too much, but not that often...

That said, I play in LA, and there are a number of times when you MUST do this, against certain players....not only for **this** hand, but for future implied odds when you don't have to slowplay a set...

That said, it is very likely a leak in my game....

Josh W