Conservatives are born rich!

[thatpfunk]

A couple of ideas, these are just kind of free flowing posts (and btw, I like the level of civilized discourse going on in this thread, its nice when we're not just all yelling at each other [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

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It also doesn't sound like this woman has made the best decisions in her life. If she's working in a warehouse for near minimum wage, it sounds like she hasn't gone to college. She also has two kids, which it doesn't like she can support very well, especially if she's raising them by herself. That could mean that she got pregnant before she was ready and in a lasting relationship (I'm speculating here but this could apply to a lot of people as well). All represent decisions made in her life that have affected her, and are not the fault of anyone else. That may sound harsh, but I'm a pretty firm believer in taking responsiblity for one's actions.

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This probably the point I disagree with most, and I think illustrates the ideas that I was thinking about making this post.

I know that because someone is born into a lower class family, they are more likely to have this outcome, and I don't find it particularly fair. It is quite difficult for individuals to break out of this vicious cycle. Who is to blame? I'm not really sure.

Also, it seems like you feel that every individual is given the same level of intelligence. Sadly enough, this is not the case. There are people who are just not very bright that exist in this world. They are at a distinct disadvantage I believe. (It seems cynical and mean to write this statement, but i believe it to be true. I think if you have ever tried to teach a "slower" class in a public school, you will find a huge difference between a slow class and a normal one).

And, another example, and probably the most difficult type of case for me to figure my opinion on:

My best friend from high school is a failure. It saddens me and pains me to say so, but he is. He will live his entire life (barring a miracle) at or around the poverty line. It also entirely his fault as he is an extremely charasmatic person with avg (or slightly below avg) intelligence and a GED.

Why do I feel bad for his situation? Because I know J and I know his life. I know that he never had a Dad and that his one step dad beat the piss out of him for 3 years before he left. I know that his mom introduced him to drug use in the 6th grade. I know that he has been an alcoholic since 11th grade. I know that he has bounced around with an unemployed mom and no positive role models, aside from friend's parents, for his entire life. I know that he was never told to get good grades, or to work hard, or to dream about succeeding, or that he has a chance to make something for himself. I also know that he is lazy and can't keep a job. I know that he is [censored] up. I also know him as a great person and one of my best friends. It saddens me as I see less and less of him as I move up the social ladder and he still makes minimum wage at 23.

I don't know what to think about him to be honest, is he personally accountable, yes, of course, he has had options, and many of them. But also do I understand why hes as [censored] up as he is? Of course. I know that I don't want to see J dead or begging in 10 years.

Not sure where this is really going, but this is the kinda stuff that I think about when these issues are addressed.

[thatpfunk]

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That is a load of bull. I was an impoverished student and I got grants/ra'ships/ta'ships/etc to pay my way through. I took care of my own bills. My brother used ROTC and scholarships to pay his way through Notre Dame. Every single member of my family took care of themselves all the way through college. African-American's and women have way more opportunities to rise from rags to riches than a white male in the same situation.

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But what about getting to college in the 1st place wacki? You must admit it is significantly more difficult with a lack of positive role models, the more prevalent lure of drug use/selling, worse inner city schools, more single parent families, etc, etc, etc...

[Dead]

Your first article is from almost a year ago.

Give me a break.

[wacki]

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But what about getting to college in the 1st place wacki? You must admit it is significantly more difficult with a lack of positive role models, the more prevalent lure of drug use/selling, worse inner city schools, more single parent families, etc, etc, etc...

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Tempations are not the same as opportunities. Somebody made the claim that if you want get to the upper middle class badly enough, you can. As long as you are of average intelligence and have your health I agree 100%. Even if you are from a dysfunctional home you can still make it through highschool. I've seen people with C/D average get into state funded colleges. It's really not that hard. You simply have to accept that your lifestyle is going to change. Hell, join the military and get your GED if you have to. Then go to college, work hard, get your masters, and then boom you're upper middle class. Any able bodied person can do it. The hardest part is making the lifestyle change.

[thatpfunk]

I am simply saying it is significantly more difficult, not impossible.

Wacki, you are simplifying things. You are definetly a bright guy. The environment in which one is raised has a very big impact on their lives. I would much rather have been raised in my situation (ok neighborhood, crappy schools, good home/family life w/ positive reinforcement) than that of the average poor black kid with a single mother. I was given a much higher oppurtunity for success.

[BCPVP]

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I like the level of civilized discourse going on in this thread, its nice when we're not just all yelling at each other

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Agreed.

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I know that because someone is born into a lower class family, they are more likely to have this outcome, and I don't find it particularly fair. It is quite difficult for individuals to break out of this vicious cycle.

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I think this is one of the things wrong with things like welfare. Welfare has a noble goal. But what does welfare do? Keeps someone just above failing. A safety net just keeps someone from hitting rock bottom. It doesn't do anything to help them climb their way back up (at least it doesn't imo). So our society needs to have an attitude change about welfare and work. Less time needs to be spent wallowing in self-pity and more time needs to be spent on encouraging people to work harder and smarter.

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lso, it seems like you feel that every individual is given the same level of intelligence. Sadly enough, this is not the case. There are people who are just not very bright that exist in this world. They are at a distinct disadvantage I believe. (It seems cynical and mean to write this statement, but i believe it to be true. I think if you have ever tried to teach a "slower" class in a public school, you will find a huge difference between a slow class and a normal one).

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I don't disagree that some people are faster learners and some people are slower learners. I would counter that people can learn despite handicaps IF they have the will to do so. I don't believe coddling them helps them, but encouraging them would. I also don't see gov't involvement solving the problem. It's a lot about attitude. And this positive, optimistic, determined attitude should be instilled from birth, but sadly this has slipped over the years, imo.

As far as your friend's situation goes, I sympathize. It reinforces my point that society's standards as far as attitude has slipped. I would also argue that in any society, there will always be someone at the bottom. I think you're right that his situation is partly his doing and partly beyond his control. I would say that those closest to him, such as yourself, should be encouraging the dickens out of him to do better. Ultimately, it will be up to him. Hopefully he has enough people who care about him to try and help him up, but he will have to change his attitude in order for that help to mean anything. It's tough love, I understand, but I think it's the best way. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen many better proposals.

Let's keep the nice tone going! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[gvibes]

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If it takes money to make money, how do those with no money make it?

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A question best answered, I think, by reading the Rich Dad/Poor Dad series.

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A generally good post, but rich dad/poor dad has been thoroughly discredited by John Reed - the book's basically a figment of Kioysaki's imagination.

[thatpfunk]

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I think this is one of the things wrong with things like welfare. Welfare has a noble goal. But what does welfare do? Keeps someone just above failing. A safety net just keeps someone from hitting rock bottom. It doesn't do anything to help them climb their way back up (at least it doesn't imo). So our society needs to have an attitude change about welfare and work. Less time needs to be spent wallowing in self-pity and more time needs to be spent on encouraging people to work harder and smarter.

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This is an EXCELLENT point imo. I just have trouble conceptualizing any sort of solution [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Voltorb]

I'm curious as to why productivity is up 26%, yet wages are only up 7%. Do owners and management usually take roughly seventy-five percent of the profit, leaving only twenty-five percent for those who do most of the work? So if I want a 25% raise, I have to work 100% harder, while the CEO, junior corporate executives, and other guys who take long lunches and play golf during meetings get a handsome 75% of the cut. Its not like they were the ones busting their humps to up productivity. This country needs stronger unions, or we should all just stop working so hard to make other people rich.

[Dead]

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I think this is one of the things wrong with things like welfare. Welfare has a noble goal. But what does welfare do? Keeps someone just above failing. A safety net just keeps someone from hitting rock bottom. It doesn't do anything to help them climb their way back up (at least it doesn't imo). So our society needs to have an attitude change about welfare and work. Less time needs to be spent wallowing in self-pity and more time needs to be spent on encouraging people to work harder and smarter.

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This is an EXCELLENT point imo. I just have trouble conceptualizing any sort of solution [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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his points are correct, but BCPVP wants to abolish welfare. So BCPVP thinks that it's important to encourage people to work harder etc. You don't help people by cutting the rug out from underneath them, no matter how low the rug is situated.