Preflop Play of QJo

[Yerma]

"You are in middle position with queen-jack offsuit. Three players limp in ahead of you. What do you do?"

I fold easy.

"Would your answer be any different if you were in late position? How would it change if you were in a tight game with only 2-3 players taking a flop on average? "

The only time QJo is playable is when you are reraising a steal raise or maniacal raise, steal raising yourself, or if you are on the button against two limpers (raise). The 'nature' of the game is irrelevant.

[Yerma]

These ideas are so tight-weak that you anger me.

Now, it's not very constructive of me to call you names, so I would like to make an actual point: If someone is limping in with any ace, any two suited, or any pair and you respond by limping in as well with QJo then that man is outplaying you preflop.

Here's how you actually cross someone who likes the bad hands (eg. A7o in early for a limp): you raise him. You get him heads-up with your own bad hand or you just hold a good hand and raise everybody.

There is a lot of meaning that I have left out in this post. But once you figure out what I'm talking about, you will finally be playing well.

[Jim Brier]

But Yerma, the problem is that you cannot isolate one player in this situation because you have three players already committed. I would agree that if only one loose limper came in, this would be more like a raise or fold situation. From your answer below, I gather you would fold.

[Yerma]

"But Yerma, the problem is that you cannot isolate one player in this situation because you have three players already committed."

If you consider the chances that: a) someone will have a raising hand behind you; b) that someone has limped in before you with a better hand; c) that you must flop *something good* to win this hand; d) the size of the pot

and that the main factor here is (b) then there will probably be some mathematical treatment to this problem that says that there are *no* limping hands and only a very few raising hands. I won't tell you that's true for sure because it's a hard problem!

Look at it this way. Suppose you are the second limper. You think the first limper has come in with AJo or 88 or something. Can the second limper come in with ATo? And if the third limper knows this about the first and second limper, can the third limper come in with KJo? There's no way he's supposed to do that. They're better off coming in with garbage than hands that duplicate the outs of the earlier limpers. It gives them a better chance at the pot. And then you come in with your QJo and the other limpers, with their garbage, have just outplayed you. That's not to say they should have come in with their own subpar hands but that none of you should have limped in the first place.

Maybe you remember the old draw poker days? If someone opened and then two people call, do you come in with two tiny pair? You're asking to get killed if you play that way. The only reason it's not so apparent in hold'em is that there are two extra betting rounds you can use to catch up. But the effect is still there.

[M.B.E.]

<font color="purple">There is a lot of meaning that I have left out in this post. But once you figure out what I'm talking about, you will finally be playing well.</font color>

What? I don't think Jim Brier needs you to tell him whether he's playing well. Many of us strive to play as well as Jim.