Too weak tight? Flop bottom set

[VanVeen]

IF the game is aggressive preflop and your opponent is unlikely to have limped hands like 67, 34, or 99/TT from his position, or IF your opponent wouldn't raise the flop after a bet and a call with 99/TT/A8s? (his raise also allows him to extract some information on the cheapest street left to play) to end the hand without seeing and dealing with a scary turn card or with 34/67 as a semi-bluff to blow the blinds off their (very likely) weak hands/draws, this is a fine laydown. But if all of this is true and you know this specific opponent would only make this play with a set, why post?

Personally, I would at least call the flop and lead the turn, planning to fold if raised.

[technologic]

raise the deuces preflop if you are going to play like this.

[John Gaspar]

You were there and we weren't so you have a better "feel" for the player in question, but I still have trouble saying it is a marginal situation.

His relatively small raise seems to me that he is fishing for information rather than making a cute play.

What do you think he puts you on? If he is an ABC player, would he raise a drawless board with a bettor and caller on the flop. If he has middle or top set, isn't he much better off raising the turn for a much larger amount, assuming the SB leads out or you bet from the BB.

I may not want to play for my stack either, but I'm willing to call the small raise and lead out $300 or so on the turn to make sure that I'm beat.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
This exact situation is outlined in PL/NL by CIaffone and Reuben. A virtually drawless flop, you're probably seen as a tight player, it's an unraised pot, and a bet and a call to a middle position player. I can't see a tight player raising with nines or tens here.

[/ QUOTE ]

When Triumph said "exact", he meant exact.

This is taken from Pot Limit & No Limit Poker by Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone. It is question number 5 of Ciaffone's Big Bet Hold 'Em Quiz (Chapter 17).

His rating of answers:
Fold (10 pts) Call (3 pts) Raise (0 pts)

If you reraise here, you basically announce that you have at least two pair. You've just given him your stack if he has a set. The pot is going to get big enough where you can't get away from the hand (obviously he is smooth calling your reraise). You have defined your hand and he has position. There is really no reason to play for your stack here.

Ciaffone says "With a pair of nines or tens, if he did not raise preflop, he likely would have made a larger raise in this spot than $110 more with a $240 pot, as he'd want to shut you out."

He judged that villain likely would have raised any other over pair (JJ-AA) preflop. He is going with his read and laying this down. In the actual hand the villain supposedly had top set.

The point is that you have to be able to make laydowns in no limit. People have been talking about going with reads and making marginal calls, but that doesn't mean you can't go with a read and make a "big" laydown.

[Chaostracize]

This sounds an AWFUL lot like a hand Ciaffone wrote about in his no limit/pot limit book.


An awful lot.

[soah]

Thanks for repeating that for us.

[mythrilfox]

Uh, why are you posting this? You do realize that Ciaffone's laydown was based on a very long history with Villain and sickeningly accurate analyzation of Villain's play, right? Because on most games today played at that limit this is not an automatic laydown, and is anything but.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

As a relatively tight player, I'd say it is far from improbable that on an 8 high flop with a bet and a just call from the blinds that I would put in a slight raise to gauge where I'm at. This could easily be a feeler bet by a guy who assumes he can take down the pot with a raise and folding a set here is just atrocious. Tight players do not only raise with sets, and thinking that they do is an absurdly negative E.V. attitude.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]

Uh, why are you posting this? You do realize that Ciaffone's laydown was based on a very long history with Villain and sickeningly accurate analyzation of Villain's play, right?

[/ QUOTE ]


No. Totally wrong. Reread the book. The hand was part of a quiz. It was not a story he told to show he had a read on a specific player he had a history with. Amazing you could miss this point when the hand is part of a QUIZ! There is no mention of him having a long history with the villain. The description of the villain is: "Gary, a sound player in middle position who had been the second player to enter the pot". Nothing more. It is a quiz. How could you be so confused here?

[ QUOTE ]

Because on most games today played at that limit this is not an automatic laydown, and is anything but.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, which is why I said the villain was a solid, ABC player and that the table was tight. You don't have to give away your stack here. You really don't.

I agree with your "not an automatic laydown", and I don't think everything written by Ciaffone is gospel. The point is more that a laydown is a very viable option. Many posters want to take the "I lose my stack here every time" attitude, and that is terrible. If you continue with this hand, a good player knows what kind of hand he needs to beat and the pot is big enough where he can get your whole stack. You are proceeding in a "marginal situation".

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
As a relatively tight player, I'd say it is far from improbable that on an 8 high flop with a bet and a just call from the blinds that I would put in a slight raise to gauge where I'm at. This could easily be a feeler bet by a guy who assumes he can take down the pot with a raise and folding a set here is just atrocious. Tight players do not only raise with sets, and thinking that they do is an absurdly negative E.V. attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you lose your stack here to a higher set every time, right? Remember, we are talking about a specific hand, so comments like "tight players do not only raise with sets, and thinking that they do is an absurdly negative E.V. attitude" are borderline useless.

Some posters have said that they would have to lose their stack here everytime, and that is fine because they are describing their plan for this hand. What is your plan?