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#1
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Due to lack of information about the game of PL Omaha HiLo, I could use some help on guidelines for starting hands.
Specifically, how should these hands differ from limit play? I play on Paradise and there are often very good games. I just started playing the PL version about three weeks ago, and I am quite comfortable playing against most of the players. I want to play tightly preflop (as well as postflop). I am not interested in exploiting every little edge that I can get. Almost all of my big hands have been played with solid starting cards, and most of my mistakes occured with marginal starting hands. What are the minimum requirements I should adhere to for the various positions? Currently, these are (very loosely) my requirements: EARLY: * A2 or A3 with at least one other low card (6 or under) * Suited A with 2 or 3 (is the latter too loose? I'm guessing so) * A2 or A3 with two big cards Ten or greater. * AA with 2, 3, 4, or any suited card. * KQJT, AKJT, or something very similar. (NOT QJT9) * AKKQ or AKKJ MID (add): * Any A2 LATE (add): * 432x * KQT9 * QJT9 * (Almost) Any A3 (button) * KK32 I play nearly as tightly in the small blind and call raises in the big blind with only some of these hands. I'm very inclined to fold for a raise of most any size; there are almost always multiple players already committed and they are not folding. As you can see, I play pretty tight all the way around and don't add many hands in position. What other hands can I add to this list that are fairly obvious? Are couple of these hands I play too loose for their position? ThanX! |
#2
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I don't really know PLO8, but I know how to play tight, and you said that's what you want to do, so here is my opinion. The overriding consideration behind my thoughts is that you want to scoop or 3/4 the pots. That means winning both ends, or winning high when there is no low. It also means aiming at the nuts. Omaha hi-lo is a game with lots of freerolling opportunities, too, and it's important to avoid being on the wrong end of those.
So with that in mind, here we go... EARLY: * A2 or A3 with at least one other low card (6 or under) * Suited A with 2 or 3 (is the latter too loose? I'm guessing so) These look like 3-card hands to me. Play four-card hands! Especially in early position. All that really means is that if you're playing an A25x, the x shouldn't be nine or ten, so that it connects well with the ace either for high or low. I doubt it would hurt too much to insist on a suited ace. * A2 or A3 with two big cards Ten or greater. Can't argue. * AA with 2, 3, 4, or any suited card. Again, look for four card hands. As I said above, it's quite easy for the fourth card to be helpful somehow. AA94 with no suits isn't much of a hand, though. * KQJT, AKJT, or something very similar. (NOT QJT9) * AKKQ or AKKJ Hell yes. MID (add): * Any A2 This is just asking to get half, quarter or counterfeited. Don't play these! Imagine if the flop comes K86, you check, there's a bet and two calls behind you. So you call, next card is a T. A pot sized bet is now a lot of money and you have a largish draw to a quarter of the pot. Also imagine being up against an A23 when you flop nut low. Ugly ugly ugly. LATE (add): * 432x * KQT9 * QJT9 * (Almost) Any A3 (button) * KK32 A3 alone just plain sucks. I can't argue with the high hands, although I might even play them in earlier position if the game is passive enough preflop. The flop will give you a very clear picture of where you're heading, so you can afford to see it provided you don't get trapped with QTJ9 when the flop is 378. KK32 is a crazy holding. You are aiming one way or the other and will usually have only half your cards working after the flop, since an ace kills your KK, and no ace kills the 3-2. Play four card hands! Just my thoughts, hope they're interesting. Guy. |
#3
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This post was writen on RPG. I think it's the best piece of advice I've read on Omaha HI/LO.
Pot Limit Omaha 8 Whatever you think you know about playing this game is probably WRONG. First and foremost bluffing is seldom done in Omaha 8, except on minute pots or with the 4 card hand. The name of the game is not scooping pots but a concept known as the 3/4 scoop. I don't care what you read about this game, this game boils down to one thing only, knowing how to bet the hand. Knowing the best starting hands are definitely a must, but betting makes you the money. Pairs The best Omaha Pot Limit 8 hands contain no pairs. Playing the hands right is the most important issue in the game. I read posts where people try taking the pot for peanuts, while having decent draws. This is a wrong approach to this game. A poster recently mentioned a hand where he held A,2,4,J with a "dry Ace" [meaning lone Ace with out the flush draw]. The flop came 3,5,10 with the flop containing two spades. The poster stated he held the "dry Ace of spades" and proceeded to pot the hand, getting one caller. Analyze this hand and the way the betting should play out. The bettor potted this hand on the flop. Why do this? Look at the hand. It is a decent hand, but definitely no monster. Yet it has many possibilities including an uncounterfeitable low and possible scoop. Once low hits, the bettor is assured a piece of the pot with a possibility of a scoop. The pot bettor had position as he was last to act. Thinking about this hand let's you realize you crave multiple action. You don't need the pot too big, in case someone is planning on check-raising with a set, forcing you into a big bet call and probably being isolated with this person. Is this something you think is beneficial for you with this hand? Far better to have several players in with you and reduce the gamble. Make low and then gamble if you must. Play for this hand would be a small bet on the flop. Possibly as small as you can make to ensure all parties call. Does it hurt to have everyone call you in this hand? Definitely not, as you have an above average hand to attack with. By potting the hand on the flop, how much money can you make? All you would take down are the opening rounds of bets, which isn't much for you did receive a pretty fair flop for your holdings. The proper bet for this hand on the flop would be approximately the same amount as the opening bet. The more the merrier and if you get quartered, a smaller loss for you. Betting this smaller amount makes others take shots, as they think they are getting pot value. They are wrong [they may get it from others, but not from you] and you control this hand at this point, especially with position. The next card was a Q if I remember right. The betting will likely be passed around to you again. What do you do now? The same thing you did a card ago, bet a small amount again and hope all the players call. The best card you can catch is an A. Now you come out betting enough to warrant a nice win. You don't have the "nut" for high but you do have the nuts for low and the 2nd nuts for high. Milk these people and make something more than just the initial opening bets. What would happen if instead of the Q coming on the turn an 8 did. Now you are sitting with the nut low with a possibility of scooping by making a wheel. Your hand is very good but nothing special. Again you send out a bet, slightly larger this time as you know you are ensured a piece of this pot. Let people draw and don't commit yourself into a situation where you are one on one. This is not a hand that warrants this. Give everyone a chance to make something and perhaps your low will improve and you may scoop. You are also adding more money to the pot and leaving yourself far less vulnerable to someone trying to slow play or isolate you. Who knows, you may also split a decent pot. What you want in this game is "nut high", but this usually doesn't make you as much money as you think. Flushes look good enough but once the 3 flush hits the board most actions goes to a crawl. The same can be said if a pair hits the board. The name of this game is to 3/4 the opposition. The players able to do this and understand this concept are among those able to totally destroy this game. the 6 The 6 seems like a useless card to most of you. In Pot Limit Omaha 8 it is a very important card to hold when playing the concept of 3/4. Hands containing 7's,8's,9's, are basically useless as you are playing one less card than your opposition. People that go for the 3/4 concept know the best staring hands contain NO PAIRS. Pairs are fundamentally useless in this game no matter what any book tells you. I am telling you different and whether math tells you will earn this much with this, the play of the hand is not taken into account. Staring hands you should relish include four cards starting hands to a 6 low, giving the highest priority to the ones containing A, or 23. These are the hands that allow for the making of big pots and they allow you to 3/4 many hands. Many combinations of wheels exist, with the worse combination being the ones that have Aces in them. Three card wheel boards with an Ace will either get you all or half if this is the nut high.You have been taught to attack this game from the A,2 perspective. You weren't taught this is not the best concept for Pot Limit. Having three wheel cards on the board is not an easy thing. Calling an opening bet with 4 cards to a six is not an expensive thing. Very easy to get rid of the hand if your board doesn't come and not expensive either. Take a hand such as A,3,5,6 and you may start to realize. Your key card from the opening is trying to hit a 2. If you don't, what do you lose except you initial opening bet. When you hit your key card or cards you are then in for a treat. Say the board comes 2,4,K. Now you are in business for if the wheel does get there, you have "nut nut". Take a bunch of cards and take combinations of these cards and see what kinds of hands you develop when you hit your key card. Basically the same premise as playing an A Q in holdem. In most of these hands you also have a secondary card to hit. With the A,3,5,6 the secondary card is the 4. Now stick two more low cards out on the board and see what your holdings will be. Easy to get rid of the hand for a small loss, but when you do hit you capture the hand or 3/4 the pot, giving you a tidy profit on a minimum investment.. Obviously Ace flushes are good and double flush hands better. But flushes don't make you money in this game. You want the person's whole stack and many lay down at the sight of 3 flush cards. This is why the game should be approached from a low aspect. I prefer having four to a 6 than I do having 4 to a wheel. Remember when wheels come on the board, unless an A is on the board, the wheel will make for at least a six high straight possibility. It kills the hands containing A,2. So here we have you playing A,2,3, when realistically at best you will only win half of the pot. This is what having the 6 in the hand adds to the value in pot limit. People don't lay down "nut lows". If they do, they will lose anyway for if they are guessing if the person has a hand, he will surely be able to fool them before long. This is what good players do. the High Approach High hands are playable in this game. The ones you imagine as being the best are probably not. Key high starting hand include any combination of 40 or 41 with no pairs [A=11, face=10. Meaning K,Q,J,10 or any of three of these cards with an A. Actually the Ace can be detrimental as the key card to this hand are the 9 and another face card. This hand is easy to call with and easy to get rid of without much loss. If the flop comes two faces cards, you can be in decent shape and can evaluate. Remember the key card is a 9 for it allows K high straights to be made, without a low. There are many combinations in this game but in pot limit Omaha 8 patience is a key. The betting is the lock. Knowing how and how much to bet is invaluable. When playing these hands for high, you also develop other outs while having the nuts. Bluffing Bluffing is basically non existent in this game, unless winning a few opening bets is called bluffing. People trap and slow play. The style I am talking about allows you to keep control of the pot. Potting comes when you flop small nut full houses early and don't have better draws. Potting is done when you make the nuts both ways and want to preserve the hand both ways. Omaha 8 is not a bluffing game and small bets made by good players are called sweeteners as they are so small it invites people to put money into pots with little or no chance. This negates loses you may incur from being quartered and keeps pots where you want them. Having a low with no high is not a bargain, though it can be if played well, with knowledge you have the only nut low. Betting will tell you many things, if you understand. One certain hand allows bluffing to occur in this game. It is a rare hand and a rare situation when it occurs. Most don't realize the strength of this hand or what is takes to call it. Take a board that comes A,9,7,Q,2 with no flush possibilities. Put your holdings on A,2,4,6. Looking at this hand in a multiple way pot, the hand doesn't look good. How wrong you are about this hand. This is the premiere bluffing type of hand in this game. Potting this hand almost assures you of half the pot or the whole pot. In fact, having someone bet into you while holding a hand like this would make me POT. You are holding a highly difficult hand for a single person to beat. Provided two people don't hold the nuts each way, your hand is very strong. In most probability it takes two people calling the pot to beat you. You hold a rare hand in the fact all four cards play. Most people are not aware of these types of hands and think they are weak. Thinking about this hand you realize when you pot this hand or raise the max, people are forced to make a decision. Three Aces are the nuts for high and 34 the nuts for low. Many people may want to slow the action down with two pair or a number two low in order to get a piece of the pot. Realize a person must use ALL FOUR cards to beat your hand. This is not an easy thing to do. Having one caller allows you to get half the pot and most will throw number two's or three's away. This is the best bluff available in Omaha, for it normally takes two callers holding the nuts each way to beat you. From the betting you would have realized this was not the case, thus the play is very profitable. Most players flaws in this game comes from their lack of knowledge on how to bet. Betting is the key as I have stated before. Gambling in this game is not a necessity as the hands I have told you will put you into ideal positions in pots. Hands like A,A, 4,J double suited may seem very nice, but there is no real need to get involved with these hands if you don't know how to bet right. Hands such as A,2 7,J double suited are also very susceptible to fluctuations. Pot Limit Omaha 8 is the "ultimate grind game". It is hard to really get stuck in these games playing well. Normally it takes double counterfeits to get you big loser. These are very rare but can't be avoided. The main reason many people prefer Omaha is they like the action. Having all these cards allows you to come up with some kind of draw all the time. With the starting hands I have told you, many of your flops will allow for %'s well above 50. Pot Limit is far different than limit and the same hands aren't worth the same thing. Playing well more than compensates for people playing bad starting hands. If you want to win it is a very boring game. If you want to gamble go right ahead. I don't like my % in making a flush even if I have 3 other people in the pot. Give me a 'wrap around" nut low with the bicycle, 6 high straight possibility. This is the type of gamble I prefer. I will answer all reasonable questions. Russ Georgiev Georgiev Cheating Analysts, formerly Gambling Cheating Analysts It is hard to fight the truth, logic just gets in the way Question to skeptics? Do you doubt my knowledge of poker? If you don't doubt my knowledge, please explain why I would end my career in playing poker in casinos? If you doubt my knowledge, attack my posts. Google Home <http://www.google.com/> - Advertise with Us </ads/> - Search Solutions </services/> - Services & Tools </options/> - Jobs, Press, & Help </about.html> |
#4
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This is a terrific essay.
IMO the best thing Russ has ever written on RGP |
#5
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Agreed. I "saw the light" reading this.
-Happy [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] |
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