I don't get group buys - help me understand

[BuyPokerChips]

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If you as a retailer set up a "group buy" bulletin board of sorts--where people could place orders on a specific design originated by a customer and you could then give discounts based on the volume of orders and handle the sale--you'd probably be a hero...

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Now that's what I'm talking about. That's a productive and innovative suggestion worth considering!

I'm interested in hearing more suggestions and/or recommendations of what you'd like to see poker chip retailers make available. Bring it on!

[Slow Play Ray]

Since I organized the Custom Kings Crown group buy, I thought I would offer you my 2¢ on the subject.

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What the motivation is for the group purchase organizer, and how it is any different than the motivation for your average chip retailer?

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My motivation was SOLELY to get the chips I want at a price I like. After much sample collecting, I knew what I wanted, but it did not exist in a cost-effective form, so I came up with a way to make it happen. Your average chip retailer - no, every chip retailer - is in it for the money. Not that there is anything wrong with making a buck, but I stood to make absolutely nothing off of this deal, nor did I want or expect to.

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Why these posts about group buys allowed, and almost encouraged, while posts from established retailers shunned?

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Because the moderators do not allow free advertising. I will grant to you there is a lot of gray area here where retailers have stepped in on group buys to simplify things for the participants, but I would assume they have been allowed to slip under the radar because their help was solicited. In my case, nobody made any money off of these chips except for the manufacturer.

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But how much cheaper is it on average?

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For the quantity I purchased, it was 52%. I doubt you can question the savings there.

In response to the point of potential fraudulence, I can only say let the buyer beware. Anyone stupid enough to entrust their hard-earned money to someone else w/o the use of an escrow account or some other protection deserves what they get. In my case, each individual paid the manufacturer directly, so there was no chance of being ripped off, or having the price change, for that matter.

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"HEY, we're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit".

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To summarize, our savings were 52%, we can return defective items to the manufacturer for replacement, the customer service has been excellent to date, the price stayed firm to the original quote received 3 months before the order was placed, and many of us paid with a credit card with no additional fees and very fair shipping costs. Yes, we paid in advance, because like any savvy manufacturer, they required a deposit to proceed with the job.

I am extremely happy I went this route, but maybe that's just me.

Any questions?

[Fins]

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[ QUOTE ]
If you as a retailer set up a "group buy" bulletin board of sorts--where people could place orders on a specific design originated by a customer and you could then give discounts based on the volume of orders and handle the sale--you'd probably be a hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's what I'm talking about. That's a productive and innovative suggestion worth considering!

I'm interested in hearing more suggestions and/or recommendations of what you'd like to see poker chip retailers make available. Bring it on!

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice "Help me make money" thread not so nicely veiled as a "what were you thinking??" & "I'm here to serve you" post. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My motivation to consider a group buy would be primarily design & cost.

Your prices are what made me decide to go custom (on my own not in a group buy). They're now a $1.05/chip but when I ordered mine seems it was more like $1.10+ basically for a little more I could have a personal set. Don't take this as your prices are too high... I'm sure they're priced per the market and they're a nice design so charge whatever but it plays a big factor in others searching for more affordable routes.

As far as the design having the ability to cutomize your chips is a significant factor... even if it's only a small part in the design, offering suggestions or following the process. If it takes a turn you're not happy with than wait and maybe a more appealing design will start up. Bring back the custom Paulson home market and you'd have a flood of chip buyers! Look at PC.com people are waiting 4 months! for chips that they are settling for... not what they'd prefer only what they prefer given what's available. They're great chips but if there was even a hint that they'd open up the edge spot options I bet some folks would have waited longer. I chose Chipcos because of my design but had pc.com offered multicolored spots (even just 2) I'd have redesigned and waited for clays. The point is if large group buys can make this happen the more popular they'll become.

I think there are several large gaps in the market.

More affordable customs:
The customizeable Dessert Sands are a good idea but the price is still to high IMO and the design is not to my tastes. There's another company I'll leave nameless but offers a more affordable route but their service is atrocious especially after sale/deposit. This could be improved upon.

Higher quality clays & more customizeable options ideally Paulson... e.g. offer 2-3 diff inlays (denom & non-denom) with double or single edge spot clors of your choice as a minimum.

There are plenty of retailers that contibute alot to this forum and are a great asset... it's the ones who are not here to help & learn but hope to advertise & sell that may keep you from getting the benifit of the doubt. A user name like "buypokerchips.com" certainly doesn't help matters. If your one of the former than welcome & we could use your input, ideas, knowledge, humor etc...

- Fins

[jojobinks]

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Nice "Help me make money" thread not so nicely veiled as a "what were you thinking??" & "I'm here to serve you" post. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


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thanks for saying it, fin. when i've done focus groups before, i've usually been paid for the effort.

[Spooky]

I know nothing about the chip production process, and my understanding is that most of it is some big secret. But from the way I picture the process it goes something like this:

The clay materials are squeezed out of a glorified playdough factory machine and cut off into approximate chip sized slices.

They are transfered to another machine where the inserts are added.

Then they are pressed/cooked into molds, coated in some way, inspected, packaged, and shipped.

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Ok thats crude and probably inacurate.. but it will work for this discussion.

If there were a way to compile lists of orders from multiple customers who were interested in the same base/edge spot combinations. But with personalized inserts for each customer. Much of the re-tooling fees could be avoided.

You could work with customers to get their inserts to fit the standards, then they could add their names to the list for "Green w/Yellow-Red edge". When there was enough orders of that basic chip to make it worth the manufactures while the customer could get those chips.

Not all customers whould be interested in working this way, and you would need to do a lot of pre-work to have popular standard color combinations worked out. Not to mention working with the manufacturer to find the feasability of this method.


Anyway.. just an idea.

[Gizmata]

In the case of group for a stock chip you are just saving money. You can cut out the expenses of the middleman, his profit margin, and a shipping charge.

In the case of the 100k Paulsons there is a desire for a better chip that is different and special.

Any Joe can log on the internet and order the standard Paulsons or whatever quality of chip they want. The people who read here seem to be much more fanatical about their chips than the standard consumer.

With a custom buy of a high quality rare chip your only real chance is a group buy. If any retailer such as BPC COULD get authorization to sell them and designed a set, they would of course want to sell as many as possible. No one faults them on this, as they are there to make a living and want to be rewarded for the costs of such effort.

With a group buy, like the Paulsons', quantity of the minted chips will be limited to the original purchase. There is no underlying push to make money that fuels selling as many as possible. There is also a sense of ownership. To be part of a movement to get a manufacturer to give us what we want.

I will admit though that it does look dangerous. To have approximately one hundred thousand dollars committed by complete strangers. However as with anything on the internet there is always the concern. Even when I purchased chips from BPC recently I grew concerned because my order was delayed almost a week with no word. It turned out you were short on one of the denominations, but the anonymity of pushing a buy button and hoping I would get my item was just as much a concern as anywhere else. Hopefully you will take the time to let your customers know when they order if there is going to be a delay before having to ask in the future.

[TenPercenter]

Whoa... a lot of stuff to digest here... this might take me a while. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ten

[smoore]

My attraction to the group buy comes from beauty, uniqueness (chip security), and price... in that order. I was considering purchasing some ceramic chips at one time (before I fell in love with clay) and looked at all the stock chipcos, that other one (archetype?) and the nevada jacks ceramics. My two favorite are the chipco "classics" and the NJ "desert sands". However, these two designs do not exploit all the advantages a chipco type chip has to offer and in the NJ case actually tries to imitate a clay chip with an insert. All of the other designs are crap, IMO (with the exception of the Apache Casino chipco chip).

Along come the 2+2 group buy "suits" and "egyptians". These two group orders have raised the bar for chip design across the board. They are both stunning.

If you want to attract buyers like me as a retailer, come up with a beautiful design and put it on quality chips. Although retail ads are discouraged in the forum, I don't think a "which would you buy" poll about designs would be as reviled. If you're doing a clay chip, consider a custom mold (not your store name, but something classy), multicolor edgespots and shaped inserts. if you're doing a ceramic chip, use all of the available traits: full bleed, full color and that printable rolling edge.

Basically, I see the chip retailers catering to the "joe six pack" of chip consumers while the group buys are more along the lines of a car club, where everyone wants that little "extra" in the product.

good luck, thoughtful post, OP.

[Gizmata]

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Basically, I see the chip retailers catering to the "joe six pack" of chip consumers while the group buys are more along the lines of a car club, where everyone wants that little "extra" in the product.



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Joe six-pack pays the bills though. Else why would every major ratailer sell a case of chips. The high end is always going to be a smaller market. These forums are even a smaller segment of that small market. To find people that have money, want the best poker chips, have internet access and follow forums I think is pretty small segment overall.

I honestly don't think a bunch of businesses could survive just selling high end chips to the people who come to these forums.

[PinataUT]

(I bought Egyptians in the second run and late. I am in on the King's Crown because I love the feel of those chips. I feel comfortable that I can Ebay both sets in the event that I want to pick up 5k chips from Dennis and dump half of them on Ebay to drive my average cost per chip down... )

So, my understanding then is that this discount is in exchange for the following trade-offs:


Paying cash upfront, perhaps a couple months in the case of a customized group buy

<font color="red">No really a problem with something custom made (or made as part of a 'to order' run.</font>

Paying cash (or Paypal) to someone you know primarily by a made up nickname on a anonymous discussion group on the assumption that they will send you something down the road.

<font color="red">I concur with this sentiment wholeheartedly, and would not deal directly with any individual on any order of any size that would make me uncomfortable. On the TR King order, I had grave reservations until I realized we were doing our orders through to TR King for both order and shipping.</font>


In the event of a customized design - agreeing to buy 500 chips based on a graphic design mock-up that you have little idea of how will look on an actual chip.

<font color="red"> For me the tough part with Egyptians wasn't that I didn't think the chips would look good but rather that I'd NEVER handled Chipco chips. The holdempokerchips.com sampler from Michael helped me out (torture passing on a set of 'suits'), but I was sort of silly in not getting a sample from Ten or someone of the original chip run just to check it out. The Egyptian set is a great looking set and my only issue with it is edge-spots. The fact that I can do add-ons or 'wishlist' add-ons for b-day is a help not a hindrance.</font>


In the event of a customized design - agreeing to a concensus designed chip, or one designed by the group buy organizer, which you have little say over - so essentially it's not really a customized chip, just someone elses design that you get to approve upfront.

<font color="red">I don't think of the Egyptians as a 'custom order' but they are better than what I've seen offered at retailers, especially when you get volume discount and art charge leverage.</font>

In the event of a customized design - Not having the ability to add to your set or replace lost or damaged chips down the road because it's a one-time event.

<font color="red">Depends on what you buy. Many retailers of custom sets give you a discount on 'rebuys.' For something like the TR King, it would be tougher to add chips at the lower price, but not hard to add to the set if you REALLY (read: $$) wanted to do it. For the 'Kings Crown' the design is a) known quantity since I've held chips with the same inlay and b) you can add in unordered denoms if you want. Or I'm considering ordering some fractional hotstamps at some point... or adding a single non-denom chip to my 'stable.'</font>

Assuming the risk that the final prices could change and you're already somewhat pot committed as you've already paid the bulk of the purchase price

<font color="red"> Not for any order I've done. People should be careful about this sort of thing.</font>

Assuming the risk of a fradulent group buy.


<font color="red">I'm 10000% behind you on this one. People seem very casual about this aspect and I don't get it. There is little chance that I'd be handing over $$ to even Ten. </font>

Giving up any degree of customer service in the event that their is a problem with the merchandise and/or the shipment gets lost in transit


<font color="red"> Again a potential issue in some of the other 'group buys' going.</font>

Giving up the ability to return a purchase for a full refund
Giving up the convenience and security protection provided by paying with a credit card

<font color="red">Yep.</font>

Good points and thanks for the post.

Sorry to dupe some of Ray's points.