I don't get group buys - help me understand

[RogerZBT]

Couple of random thoughts…

I think most people are interested in chips for themselves and the group-buy evolves from there in an attempt to get cheaper prices.

There are two or three threads involving group-buys at a time. How many advertising threads would there be if they were allowed? Also, the people running the group buys don't make profit on them.

I don't think security is the major issue in customized chips. I think it's getting chips you like. If I had bought a full set of either "the suits" or "the Egyptians" (I got sample sets of both) it would have been because I like the look of them.

I had little worry about being scammed (out of my $10) because they were using an established vendor.

Another major issue is that most people don't have the time or ability to put together their own unique custom chips and have them be so purdy. I've seen three designs on this board (Johnny5's being the third) that trump anything I'd ever be able to do.

[morglum_s]

It's pretty simple. Better product, better price. You seem to indicate that you are getting something less in service, but I don't see alot of people who have been involved in previous group buys complaining. If anything, the small group "atmosphere" leads to a sense of better service. As long as the finacial end is secure (either through escrow or a known storefront) there really is no downside in my opinion.

-m

[Mojo Tooth]

There is also a sexiness factor that the chips originated in the "community." The design, the discussion of tweaks and details. It's intangible but undeniable.

It short... It's l33t

[X-Files]

<font color="blue">I am seriously thinking about getting in on the new group buy from TenPecenter as long as the final design looks as good as I think it will. </font>

• Paying cash upfront, perhaps a couple months in the case of a customized group buy

<font color="blue">I do not have a problem with this. You should always check out all the information thoroughly.</font>

• Paying cash (or Paypal) to someone you know primarily by a made up nickname on a anonymous discussion group on the assumption that they will send you something down the road.

<font color="blue">This could happen with anyone you deal with on PayPal. Again, you should always check out all the information thoroughly.</font>

• In the event of a customized design - agreeing to buy 500 chips based on a graphic design mock-up that you have little idea of how will look on an actual chip.

<font color="blue">People are doing this now for the http://www.trademarkpoker.com/paulson.asp Paulson’s.</font>

• In the event of a customized design - agreeing to a consensus designed chip, or one designed by the group buy organizer, which you have little say over - so essentially it's not really a customized chip, just someone else’s design that you get to approve upfront.

<font color="blue">I guess this is the same as any chip you would by. Someone designed a chip and you like the design so you buy it. Here you get to at least give some input and in the end if you do not like it you can go elsewhere.</font>

• In the event of a customized design - Not having the ability to add to your set or replace lost or damaged chips down the road because it's a one-time event.

<font color="blue">This could be a possibility if it is a one time production run. But you would most likely know this ahead of time so you can plan ahead and order extras.</font>

• Assuming the risk that the final prices could change and you're already somewhat pot committed as you've already paid the bulk of the purchase price.

<font color="blue">Why would the price change? I guess a manufacturer could up the price on you but that would not normally happen if you had already agreed on a price. That would be like me ordering chips from you and then you would tell me that the chips are now $1.25 a chip instead of $1.00.</font>

• Assuming the risk of a fradulent group buy.

<font color="blue">There are scams everywhere. I guess you just need to use your better judgement.</font>

• Giving up any degree of customer service in the event that their is a problem with the merchandise and/or the shipment gets lost in transit

<font color="blue">So are you saying that if I ordered from you and you shipped USPS and I said the chips never arrived and you could not prove otherwise you would send another set out at your expense?</font>

• Giving up the ability to return a purchase for a full refund

<font color="blue">I would have to say you would know this fact up front so you know what you are getting into.</font>

• Giving up the convenience and security protection provided by paying with a credit card

<font color="blue">I guess it all depends on how the group buy was set up. </font>

My primary concern is this seems like too good a con for the average confidence man to pass up. Even if the majority of the people doing this are above board, that existence makes room for the con men of the world to swoop in and make a quick buck.

<font color="blue">Everyone that sells plastic chips and says “Casino Quality” and “Clay” is pulling off a con. Just a little prudence will solve this problem. I would have to say most people on this board are not idiots.</font>

"HEY, we're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit".

If that is indeed the reality, then poker chip retailers (including my company), need to recognize this consumer need and meet it with a solution. That's why I'm posting.

<font color="blue">Buying from any online retailer is a risk. You offer a product that was designed by someone in the hopes that a lot of people will like the design and purchase it. I think a group buy is like this only on a smaller scale. I did not participate in any of the group buys. I bought my chips on my own through pokerchips.com and even that was a scary proposition because you have no idea when they will ship. You bring up some good points. I think that group buys will happen as long as the manufacturers allow these types of orders.

You do bring up good points that everyone looking to get into a group buy should think about.

By the way I think the way the label and the recess on the James Bond Paulson's is horrible looking.</font>

[Cassius]

I think that the major problem is Question #2: The answer is a emphatic yes. Overly dramatic and gaudy themes with lots of color and cheesy clip art dominates the chip market (at least the cheap plastic ones) and when it comes to good quality chipco/paulson type chips, designs are few an far between.

It really comes down to aesthetics, Ten's Egyptians are some of the most eye-pleasing chips out there, regardless if you like the theme or not, none of the elements are over-played, the font is right, the spacing is good, just general graphic design staples aren't present in MANY of the designs out there - they just make me cringe, which can be disappointing because some of them are good ideas and themes, but the results are generally just painful.

Although as to design, I do like the Archetype chip a lot - the outside part with the demons and and edgespots is pretty much perfection, and the colors - pretty much orgasmic. A great example of good design - which next to noone out there has, unless someone organizes a group buy.

The main point of a group buy is that if noone does it (designs a poker chip) right, or to your standards or likes, do it yourself - and you're sure to get something you're happy with.

[morglum_s]

BPC;

Also lemme throw the question back at you. Looking at your site it looks like stock dual-edge clays go for about $1.10 to 1.30 a piece depending on the size of the order. I personally like the design on these, but in all fairness it is pretty generic.

Now as a consumer I can get custom clay chips at around $1.00 a piece (+any color/art fees) from a couple places. I can choose the color, edge spots, and inlay, and get something I really like... but have to wait.

If I go in on a group buy I can get a "group-designed" chip that is much nicer looking for $.90 or less a piece (again if I am willing to wait.) I may be taking on some risk if the deal goes south or is fraudulent, but that can be mitigated easily with escrow etc.

From my perspective it seems like I am paying way more for something not nearly as nice, and the major trade off being the time spent waiting for the product. (And this last point isn't even the case for group buys of stock chips like the new Paulson JB's going on at another site.)

-m

[warewulf]

I think you would sell more chips if you took the word "Poker" off of them. That's what killed it for me anyway.

Regarding group buys, I participated in the suits buy and now waiting for the TR King custom King's Crown buy.

TR King -- In order to get custom colors, you have to buy 5000 chips to get a decent price (.85 cents / chip). He is not only doing the custom colors, but has agreed not to make this color combo ever again. At last count we're around 6000. These are going to be very secure chips since not many others will have them. I'm getting 550 of these so I would have had to pay about $1.50 each w/o the group buy. He might not have even done this set if the order was only 500 chips. Like other group buys, there is NO risk since we organized the colors, but all money goes directly to TR King.

The suits, similar to the last Egyptians buy, was done through holdempokerchips.com. Again, no risk. Instead of paying $1 / chip, we paid .82 cents. Significant for larger orders (I bought 1000).

[Johnny5]

Some of your concerns are valid, however I must say that regardless of your intentions, persuading people from participating in a group buy here, will only result in an increase to your bottom line.

4 Key Factors:

1) Quality
2) Design
3) Exclusivity
4) Price

1-3 have been covered well, but I think price is a factor that can’t be overlooked. In your example, you looked at a group buy consisting of 5,000 chips, and came up with 16.5%. In this example, the order would be 100,000 chips, and while there have been no numbers discussed, you could extrapolate a savings of AT LEAST 30% for those people ordering 1000 chips, and closer to 40% for those ordering 500 chips or less. That is pretty substantial to me.

Add to that the design, and uniqueness of the set, and you have a winner.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the business of solving problems for consumers looking for gaming supplies

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you not consult with consumers when designing your chips? From your site:

[ QUOTE ]
Our Modern Clay poker chip line was designed from the ground up over a five-month period to embody everything discriminating poker players’ want in a clay poker chip. We brought together seasoned gamblers, professional designers, and the family behind the most popular clay chip in the history of Vegas, the original Top Hat &amp; Cane Chip. Our task? Dream up the perfect clay poker chip and make it a reality. Out of that collaboration came the unique and purposely designed “Courts &amp; Numerals” mold, a new classic.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems not.

As for the security aspect, several of us (including myself) have been burned dealing with (apparently safe/trustworthy) online retailers, so the increased risk of a group buy here is negligible.

J5

[puzzlemoney]

As somebody who has just completed design on a set of chips, I'm now looking at setup and art charges that will hike my per-chip cost up more than thirty cents per chip. If others want to get in on my design, I save over twenty cents per chip by doubling my order (assuming buyers share the art charges) from 2,500 to 5,000. It would take a huge order to get me down to the chip price that I'd pay for 2,500 chips without art charges.

As a retailer, you could help me by:

<ul type="square">[*]Lowering your prices, or giving price breaks at lower levels: Obviously, this is unfair to you and simply cuts into your profit, so this is no solution. [*]When you see a design that looks saleable, offer to waive art fees or simply buy more chips up front in exchange for the rights to sell them. This has been done by others here, as I understand it. Still, you're taking a risk here on chips that end up being not-so-popular.[/list]
(Obviously, I don't mean you, personally--you're not the guy I'm buying from; nor would I expect anyone that I am buying from to do this without a strong feeling that people will want to buy the chip.)

My real favorite solution:

The initial cost of setting up the chips for production is a huge percentage of a small (under 10,000 chip) order. If I could just buy the chips, a five or ten cent difference per chip would not be enough to make me participate in a group buy. But setup fees will end up jacking up my per-chip cost by as much as a third--so my "consumer need" is to find a way to reduce that. If you as a retailer set up a "group buy" bulletin board of sorts--where people could place orders on a specific design originated by a customer and you could then give discounts based on the volume of orders and handle the sale--you'd probably be a hero...

[Johnny5]

Good points.

When I ordered my custom Chipcos about a year ago, I had to stick to the same image and face wrap on each chip to keep the costs down to a reasonable (still ridiculously expensive!) level. A group buy is a good way to balance the cost/customization factors.

At the time, if I went directly through Chipco, and wanted each chip customized differently, the art charges alone would have been over 110% of the cost of the chips!!!

J5