What the F&%&* is a value bet exactly?

pokerlaw · #1 03-02-2005, 05:44 PM

I have seen this term many times in various books/articles i have read, and have probably made many such bets while playing, but i still have no idea what exactly a value bet is. A concrete example would be wonderful.

k_squared · #2 03-02-2005, 05:58 PM

You are heads up against a guy who plays every hand. This guy (for simplicity's sake) bets or raises whenever he calls with every hand to the end and raises with top pair or better. You flop the second pair on the board from middle position holding Q-10 off (board is A-10-5). You bet, he calls. The turn comes a 9... you bet... he calls... The river comes a K... what do you do? Well you bet for value because this player has a tendency to pay off with weak hands, and so even if you are beat some of the time the vast majority of the time you will be ahead and he will pay you off. If he raises you can also fold because he only raises when he has at least top pair. Note this simplificaiton allows us to make easier decisions, but is not realistic...

So, a value bet is when you bet because you likely have an advantage. It is different from a bluff which is designed to knock out opponents and needs the right implied odds (and folding equity) to make it a good bluff. Another kind of bet (or raise) would be one designed to knock your opponents out... i.e. in a situation where not betting (or raising) might allow a player on a draw to continue while getting the right odds. (take these comments with a grain of salt... they are my understanding of these concepts and might not be exactly in line with the technical definitions)

-k_squared

pokerlaw · #3 03-02-2005, 07:06 PM

thanks, that def helped clarify. It is pretty much what I thought it was...i guess I tend to value bet the most against players who i dub "stations", since they seem to call a lot (freqently, like you said, w the losing hand).

HopeydaFish · #4 03-02-2005, 11:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen this term many times in various books/articles i have read, and have probably made many such bets while playing, but i still have no idea what exactly a value bet is. A concrete example would be wonderful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically it's what the other poster said. It's when you reach the river and you're pretty sure that you've got the best hand (for instance, when you hold TPTK), but there's a chance that your opponent made a lucky draw or has been sucking you out for a checkraise on the river.

You bet because most of the time your opponent won't have made his draw and you'll win the pot -- which includes your bet for value on the river.

A classic example is where you have a board like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and you're holding A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in late position. Your opponent bets after the flop, and then re-raises you when you raise.

The turn is a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], he bets, you call.

The river is a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He checks. This is where you value bet, as he was probably on a flush draw, a straight draw, or has a hand like AQ or KJ. In this circumstance, many players will check at this point *in case* their opponent is holding a better hand -- however, his check on the river is a dead give-away that he's not confident about his hand and/or was on a draw that didn't hit. You throw the extra bet in because you've probably got the best hand. If he happens to have a better hand, so be it, but if you make value bets regularly (in the right circumstances, though) it's definitely +EV.

tpir90036 · #5 03-03-2005, 02:41 PM

This is a not-so-good example. A bet on the river can only be for value if a worse hand is going to call you. If you are against someone who was drawing and knew that he would only call you if he made his hand...then you are not making a value bet at all and should not be betting. Of course, we never know what cards our opponent has, so we will probably bet here and hope to get called by a smaller piece of the flop. Also, value bets do not only take place on the river.

A value bet (or raise) is a bet that you make in the hopes of being called because you believe you have an edge in pot equity. Either by way of having the best hand... or having a draw with enough opponents to give the bet a positive expectation. That's it.

I recommend Theory of Poker by Sklansky for more info.

bkfizz02 · #6 03-03-2005, 05:18 PM

I have had similar questions concerning the technical definition of value betting. It seems like a tactic more easily applied in limit games than in NL. Can you value bet in NL (holdem for example) against the deliciously loose games we find at low stakes?

MaxPower · #7 03-03-2005, 05:38 PM

When you bet on the river you want one of two things to happen. You either want a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call.

When you bet in order to get a better hand to fold - that is a bluff.

When you bet in order to get a worse hand to call - that is a value bet.

The important thing to remember is that the dead money in the pot is irrelevant for value bets. You are betting to make money on that particular round of betting - not to win the pot.

When you bluff you are attempting to win the dead money in the pot.

There are other reasons to bet, such as protecting your hand or semi-bluffing. However, on the river those two don't apply, so you are either bluffing or value betting.

You can also bet or raise your draws for value before the river. For instance you might raise a flush draw on the flop against 4 or more opponents. Once again you are looking to get value for your hand and win money on this particular round of betting. Even if you miss your draw, you still got value from the raise.

low content · #8 03-04-2005, 12:49 AM

Is the overlay bet on the flush draw really within the purview of what is normally called value betting? I hadn't heard that before.

tpir90036 · #9 03-04-2005, 11:05 AM

Of course. If on the flop your pot equity is 30%, for example, and you can get 4 bets in (one from each of 4 opponents) for every one bet that you put in... you are getting value.

It's no different than when you have an equity edge from something like a set. Just because you "only" have a draw and don't have a made hand yet doesn't mean that you don't: 1) have an edge in equity and 2) possibly have the best hand, like a huge straight-flush draw vs. someone with only one pair for example.

Marc B · #10 03-10-2005, 12:48 PM

A bet that is +EV when *called*. Normally, when you bet you are factoring in the probability that the opponent will fold into the expectation for your bet.

This is why it is often used in context of playing limit holdem against weaker opponents (calling stations), because you will be in sitautions where an opponent will call more often with weaker hands (bottom pair, etc.)