Omaha Hi low when do you raise these hands preflop?

[FlyingOver]

Hello again everyone,
I hope its ok to post alot lol.
Just wondering with what hands do you raise in omaha hi low and in what position with how many limpers.
Example 1) I had A258 three clubs to the ace
Three people limped to me and I just limped??

Example 2) One EP limper i'm in the cutoff with A49J single suited to the Jack. I raised??

Example 3) UTG i have A234 and limp??

Example 4) UTG i have AA67 single suited to the ace and limp??

Question: Which 23xx hands are playable and from which position??

My general preflop raising in hi low is kind of messy and mostly done at random times. Sometimes i raise with A236 single suited on the button 1-2 limpers and other times i limp i dont know... I need help with my preflop raising requirements. Any help greatly appreciated.

Thankyou
-MJ

[chaos]

In a loose game I will only raise with hands that have a good chance to scoop. If the players respect raises and are more likely to fold, I'll only raise from late position. If the game is such that people will call regardless of if it is one bet or two I'll raise from any position.

7, 8, and 9's are weak cards in Omaha/8. There are very few hands containing one of these cards that are worth a raise. To raise I want all four of my cards working for me.

Example 1) I had A258 three clubs to the ace. Three people limped to me and I just limped??
I would just call. A 5 is not that strong of a backup to your A2. I would want to see if an A or 2 flopped before I got too involved.

Example 2) One EP limper i'm in the cutoff with A49J single suited to the Jack. I raised??
I would fold this hand. A4 is too weak for low; J high flush draw is too weak for high.

Example 3) UTG i have A234 and limp??
If the Ace was suited I'd consider raising subject to my previous criteria. Without a suited A my only high potential is a small straight; so I'd call and see what the flop brings.

Example 4) UTG i have AA67 single suited to the ace and limp??
You have no reasonable shot at a low. This hand is worth only a call at best. Without a suited A it would be a fold.

Which 23xx hands are playable and from which position??
I'll play 23xx only if the other two cards are wheel cards or possibly a six (e.g. 2345, 2346, 2234). If there is a lot of preflop raising I'll fold this marginal hand from up front.

As always this is just my opinion. I tend to play conservatively. I try to avoid trouble and my goal is to scoop pots. This has been a profitable strategy. Hope this helps.

[beernutz]

My $.02:
Example 1) I had A258 three clubs to the ace
Three people limped to me and I just limped??
agree. perhaps reraise if raised right behind me and all call

Example 2) One EP limper i'm in the cutoff with A49J single suited to the Jack. I raised??
fold this preflop unless in the blinds

Example 3) UTG i have A234 and limp??
agree. depending on callers, if raised, may reraise.

Example 4) UTG i have AA67 single suited to the ace and limp??
raise to limit field if you think it will, in fact, limit field

Question: Which 23xx hands are playable and from which position??
2345; 23KK, and 23QQ when at least one K or Q is suited from all positions unless facing two bets cold. I'm not a great fan of 23xx in limit.

of course, mixing up your play is important too so rules like you're asking for shouldn't be hard and fast IMO

[Buzz]

MJ - I agree with Chaos. But there is more.

I don’t think you play hands in isolation. What I mean is that the way you play one hand tends to affect the way your opponents perceive you and therefore affects the way you should play another, later hand.

In my opinion, almost any hand you are willing to play before the flop (with some notable exceptions)* is a potential raising hand, but whether you actually raise or not depends on two things: (1) the effect you want to achieve by raising, and (2) the effect you can achieve by raising.

For example, AsAc5dQh is a good one-on-one hand, especially against a random big blind hand, but has serious flaws if many opponents see the flop. When you have a good one-on-one hand and want to get heads up with someone, then you want to raise. Your goal in raising is to either (a) steal the blinds, (b) get heads-up with a blind or (c) get heads-up with someone else who will call your double bet, with the blinds folding. However, there is no point in raising if five opponents will call your raise. The raise will simply not accomplish the desired effect.

The point is you should have reason for everything you do at the poker table. If your motive for making a particular move is to accomplish a particular objective (or one or more of several objectives), then when you make that particular move, you have to have a reasonable chance of success. Otherwise, making the move doesn’t make sense.

In typical low limit games some of your opponents will seem oblivious to your raises and also seem to have no good idea of what hands are good starting hands. Whether you raise or not, they’re going to call anyhow. Some of them will stubbornly call just to thwart your raise if they think your motive for raising was to induce them to fold. Many of these opponents are the same people who play almost anything before the flop, hoping to get a piece of the flop. Against these opponents, you might as well raise before the flop with any hand that has a good chance of making the nuts. A23X from any position is an excellent raising hand against these types of players.

On the other hand, when you are in a game where your opponents will tend to put you on A23X when you raise UTG before the flop, and when, because of your pre-flop raise, they will fold trash like 45TJ, which they would otherwise play, then it doesn’t make sense to raise with A23X.

What it boils down to is that there simply is no way to get around knowing your opponents. By knowing your opponents, I mean accurately predicting how they will respond to your actions. Whether you raise before the flop or not (for example UTG with a hand like A23X) depends on how your opponents will react to your raise. But that is only part of it.

Whether you raise or not before the flop also depends on how your opponents will react on future deals when you (1) raise before the flop, and also (2) when you do not raise before the flop. You don’t want them making accurate inferences about you if you’re going to continue playing against them.

Specifically, with respect to each of your four examples, except possibly for example 2, in my humble opinion, you played them just fine, just the way I would play them if I had no specific information about my opponents, and probably the way I would play them (but depending) even if I knew my opponents well.

With regard to example #2, in my humble opinion, the hand is too weak for a call. Therefore I think you either fold or raise. A quiet fold would generally be my preferred approach against unknown opponents, and therefore I agree with Chaos. However, a raise also seems a reasonable play, (1) if you were fairly certain the raise would knock out the blinds, and (2) if your pre-flop raises were too predictable to your opponents (usually A23X or AA2X, etc.). Before raising here, I would also consider what the effect of the raise might be on the tenor of the game.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

*Some hands are pure drawing hands you can only profitably play if enough opponents see the flop. 2345n is an example of such a hand. The hand is not even playable on the river (quads would be an exception, of course) on the 45% of hands when low is not possible. (When you have 2345, low is only enabled by the board 55% of the time rather than the 60% of the time low seems possible if one has no knowledge of an individual hand). For the 55% of hands where low is possible, you want to see an ace on the board to have much of a chance at low, and a scoop is doubtful. Unless one was pre-flop raising almost every time one entered the action, which I don’t think is a winning strategy in Omaha-8, it simply does not seem wise to make a pre-flop raise with 2345n. 9TJQn is another example of a hand with which I would not want to make a pre-flop raise. I might raise, especially at the beginning of the session, with such hands (2345n or 9TJQn), but it would be purely as subterfuge.

[Buzz]

Hi Beernutz - I posted my reply to "Flying Over" after reading Chaos's reply, before reading yours. (I guess I was writing mine while you were posting yours). I like your reply too. Just a couple thoughts regarding your reply.

Thought 1 - regarding your reply for example #4 - I'm not sure of this, but perhaps I would either prefer (1) to be one-on-one with the early position limper or (2) have as many opponents as possible. My thinking is that the pair of aces with an "emergency low" would be, in general, a very strong hand one-on-one against an early position limper. Unimproved aces alone might well win for high, if playing one-on-one with the limper. In addition, if the board paired, two pair (aces over the board pair), probably would be good enough to win for high if one-on-one (even though trips would be possible for your opponent).

However, as the number of opponents increases, the value of the pair of aces, by itself, decreases. You probably will need a better hand than just a pair of aces, and if the board paired, with multiple opponents, you'd have to be more concerned about an opponent having trips. Against multiple opponents you'd be drawing for a full house and would want as many chasers as possible in case you hit the full house. The other strong feature of the hand in example #4 is the nut flush draw, for which you also would want as many opponents as possible, to pay off when you made the nut flush.

Thus if I was fairly certain the raise would get me one-on-one with the early position limper, it would seem a reasonable play. I'm presuming that in the cut-off position there are still four players yet to act after the possible raise from me (button, SB, BB EPL). However, I'm not sure a raise that would probably knock out one or two opponents would be generally desirable.
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Thought 2 - regarding your reply to the question about 23XX - my failure to mention of 23KK and 23QQ hands was an oversight on my part. I think they should be included, as you have done.

However, I think 23KK and 23QQ should at least be single suited to be playable.

Thus 23KKn and 23QQn are not very playable while 23QQs is playable, with 23KKs, 23QQds, and 23KKds increasing in playability (and in that order, I think). (n= non suited, s=single suited, ds=double suited).
Thus 23QQn < 23KKn < 23QQs < 23KKs < 23QQds < 23KKds is the order of playability, with the first two in the series, in general, being folders for me, except, in general, when in the small blind or on the button.

Even though the suited king does not make the nut flush (unless the ace of the flush suit is on the board), the suitedness of the king greatly increases the value of the hand. The same is true, but to a lesser extent, of the suited queen.

As an example of the value of a suited queen, you might not want to draw to a non-nut flush but if there was a queen on the flop (making you top set), a heart flush came in on the river rather than the board pairing, and an opponent beat your set of queens with 9h8hXX, you'd wish you held the queen of hearts suited to the deuce or trey instead of 23QQn.

I probably would also tend to see the flop with 23JJds.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[beernutz]

Hi Buzz, first off thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'd like to say I intentionally post stupid things just to hear your thoughts but most of the time I can't even claim to be acting intentionally.

Anyway, I not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me on number four but just for the record my recommendation was based on being UTG with the AA67 hand and raising to hopefully get headsup with someone, perhaps, even more hopefully, someone trying to defend their blind or a calling station. I didn't consider the scenario of an EP limper but I guess I still think a raise has value.

I think we agree that the hand double suited aces 67 does well headsup and can do well with a number of opponents. Raising UTG generally is often the signal of a very strong hand (not always of course) and if you have a reputation as a rock I think you'll get a lot of laydowns by raising.

As to the 23KK and 23QQ hands I agree that having a suited high card adds a lot of value to the hand and I generally toss these hands particularly in EP if the game is wild unless one of the Kings or Queens is suited. So I think we agree here too. I really like to see the flop cheaply and with a lot of company for any KKxxs QQxxs hand which usually limits calls to late position.

Context is everything though and depending on the texture of the game I reserve the right to play looser or tighter. I even voluntarily played 2255 once out of the blinds and scooped a pot with it. After that the table was MINE. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Or at least I like to remember it that way.

[chaos]

I forgot to include the 23xx hands with a high pair. I'll generally play 23KKds, 23QQds and 23KKss. I'll ususally fold 23QQss but play it ocassionally. I agree folding these hands when not suited and all 23 with big pairs less than QQ.