To Push or not to Push?

TheAmp · #1 02-28-2005, 09:13 AM

55 party SnG.

I pushed because I dominate much more often than I am dominated. I think I must risk a coinflip. Blinds are high and I cant wait for a better hand. or can I?

How much respect should I give to an early position raiser?

I have a full orbit to use my folding equity as the first player-in. Thus , should I fold?

He had 77.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter

BB (t3910)
UTG (t1810)
MP (t1270)
Hero (t1400)
SB (t1610)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t500, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1400 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG calls t900.

Flop: (t3100) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3100) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3100) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3100

kamrann · #2 02-28-2005, 09:59 AM

It's a close one, it comes down to any read you have on how tight UTG is. If he's reasonably tight you're only dominating maybe AT, AJ, dominated by AK, AA - QQ, and marginally behind to the rest of the pairs he will raise. You have no fold equity realistically, but do have the overlay of the blinds.

Would it be absolutely horrible play to call and push if he checks to you, fold if you miss and he bets? Probably, but maybe not... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] He has enough chips to check it if he doesn't like the flop, and you are left with 900 chips if you fold which leaves you fold equity for a couple of hands. I'm not sure. I probably push like you did if he's a typical opponent at this level.

TheAmp · #3 02-28-2005, 12:31 PM

I didn't have any read. As a typical party poker player, he could have made that raise with any Ace. I agree with you there isn't much folding equity.

This hand is not good enough to put your life on it, but not weak enough to fold.

I think call/push is not the proper solution to this problem. I want to see 5 cards, not 3, and he will call without an Ace on board. In fact, most likely he will call no matter what. He is not giving me this pot. He might push the flop himself without nothing. Also, my folding equity is absolutely gone if I call (before I had little FE).

mackthefork · #4 02-28-2005, 12:38 PM

If you think he'll do that with any ace I also push as you will be ahead of his range, I think it was a good move, also I think he played it pretty horribly if hes going to call an all-in would it not be better to get the money in first to maximise FE, I don't play this high but it seems to me you played it right.

Regards Mack

shoeman · #5 02-28-2005, 12:42 PM

It does scare me that this raise was UTG. But.....

This might actually be a good spot for a stop and go. No way he's folding if you push pre-flop. However, you will get a fold a good portion of the time if he misses the flop......however not this time.

Voltron87 · #6 02-28-2005, 01:57 PM

This is a tough decision, and it depends on what range of hands UTG will make this raise with. If he is a tight player, you should pass it and wait to get your money in first. If he is looser its a push.

I am a firm believer in the fact that in SNGs you get more money from being the first in with a big raise then have a slight advantage in the cards. And while AQ is a great hand, it doesn't have as big an advantage over other holdings as being the first one in.

TheAmp · #7 02-28-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a tough decision, and it depends on what range of hands UTG will make this raise with. If he is a tight player, you should pass it and wait to get your money in first. If he is looser its a push.

I am a firm believer in the fact that in SNGs you get more money from being the first in with a big raise then have a slight advantage in the cards. And while AQ is a great hand, it doesn't have as big an advantage over other holdings as being the first one in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.
I agree with every word.

This is an important lesson.

The Yugoslavian · #8 02-28-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This might actually be a good spot for a stop and go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except hero has position on UTG. What you're really looking at is a stop n fold (which is awful) and/or stop n call with no idea whether you're behind or ahead. Also, there are hands you have yet to hear from and I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage them to also come into the pot and/or come over the top of you here.

Frankly, folding seems like a good idea unless your read really does suggest he'd make this play with just about every Ax. To me, his raise indicates an inceased liklihood of a monster and not that he has a weak holding.

Yugoslav

jcm4ccc · #9 02-28-2005, 02:26 PM

The Villian is not only raising UTG, but he is raising when the BB is the big stack. He is currently in second place, and he is willing to do battle against the big stack with this hand. You have to give him credit for a good hand. Probably AT-AK, and decent pocket pairs. The only hand you like to see is AT or AJ.

Plus, you don't know if the BB will fold. The pot is laying him pretty good odds now (1600 chips to win 3400 chips, I think), so he might take a chance if he has something halfway decent. He'll still have 2100 chips if he calls and loses. So you can't count rely on the BB folding.

I think you need to let this one go.

By the way, someone suggested the stop-and-go. The UTG bets before you on the flop, so you can't do a stop-and-go. What is more likely to happen if you call the bet is that the UTG will put you all-in and you will have missed the flop.

shoeman · #10 02-28-2005, 02:34 PM

Oh Crap! You're right. Somehow I interpreted the hand history as Hero being in the BB. You can ignore my stupidity.

Actually, a fold looks pretty good to me now.