QQ's in the BB, how should I play the flop?

AceHigh · #1 12-07-2002, 12:14 PM

Playing 2/4 on PP, I'm dealt Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] in the BB. This table is a little more passive and a little looser than normal, probably cause of the hand promotion jackpot. 5 people limp in, the small blind folds and I raise out of the BB, everybody calls. Anybody just check here?

Flop is:
7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

OK decision time here, who bets and who checks on the flop?

I bet out, but I think that might be too aggressive, someone is likely to have a K here, correct?

I'll post results later.

LargeCents · #2 12-07-2002, 12:58 PM

I'm not a pro or anything, but here's my two cents:

I always raise with JJ or better preflop simply because you are leading by so much, that you need to get your money while you still have the best hand. This is especially true at the low limits you are talking about. I really doubt anyone is smooth playing AA or KK here. In fact, some of these guys will have pure garbage, and that's who you want paying you. I have heard the argument that raising preflop is giving the field better odds at chasing you down, but at this limit these guys aren't thinking about odds and will chase irregardless of any preflop raises. In fact, they seem more likely to respect your hand and fold out than if there was no preflop raise.

On the flop, I bet. Someone maybe has a king, but you still don't want anyone to have a free chance at a longshot draw. Here is where it really helps to know who your competition is. If there is a maniac on the button I would try for a check-raise. I know I might be in the minority here, but I'd play QQ as if it was AK until I had a good reason to think someone else has a king. (For example: Mr. Supertight is calling two bets cold.)

Please feel free to rip apart my analysis, it will only make me a stronger player in the long run .

AceHigh · #3 12-07-2002, 02:22 PM

"I always raise with JJ or better preflop "

Yeah, that's usually where I draw the line.

"Someone maybe has a king, but you still don't want anyone to have a free chance at a longshot draw"

But if someone has a King, isn't it me with the longshot draw?

I thought this hand was interesting because if I don't bet, it might be hard to lay this hand down on the flop for 1 bet from late position. And if I do bet, it might be hard to lay it down on the flop for a raise from late position, since there are a couple str8 draws out there (QJ and 98).

"feel free to rip apart my analysis"

I prefer to think of it as constructive critism.

RINCON · #4 12-07-2002, 03:13 PM

Acehigh- this is a easy bet on the flop.One problem you have here is the str8 draw so if you are called you don't exactly know where you stand.If you meet don't meet any resistance on the flop I would also bet the turn.I would be looking for a free showdown on the river depending on what comes on the turn and river.Don't let off the gas until the cops let you know they are there.

Good Luck,
RINCON

AceHigh · #5 12-07-2002, 07:46 PM

OK, so I bet the flop, 2 players folded and 3 called.

Turn was the J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
making the board 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
4 players see the turn with 8 big bets in the pot.

I picked up the str8 draw, so I figured I would bet the turn. 2 limpers call and the button raises. I call, all the limpers call.

River was the 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
giving me my str8. I bet and limpers fold and button calls. Button had KJo for 2 pair on the turn.

Analysis:

I'm still not sure whether betting the flop was better than checking. Checking and maybe folding seems weak, but I think checking might be the better play. In this case the hand might play the same way, because I couldn't trust the buttons bet means I'm beat.

BKism · #6 12-08-2002, 05:54 PM

I definately raise QQ here pre-flop. As for the play of the hand I bet the flop. If I am raised, I fold. If I am just called I fire a bet in on the turn. I check-call the river.

Herb N. · #7 12-08-2002, 06:38 PM

Before I read the answer to how the hand played out I was thinking how I would have played it.As it turned out this time I would have been correct.Anyway here's my thought process.QQ in the B.B.? I just call. lets see what the flop looks like...K,10,7,flops if I bet and get raised What do I do? Dump it right[and never get to see the turn]..If I check and call Maby I can pick up a longshot draw,or hit a Q.Look at it this way on the flop if you bet and someones got the King[or beter]you proubly getting raised.if not your inducing a 10 to bet.If an A,or J hits the turn you pick up the draw.With this hand,, in this position you must go into a defensive mode.

AceHigh · #8 12-08-2002, 07:27 PM

"QQ in the B.B.? I just call."

I think that's what S&M recommend. It has it's merits.

"in this position you must go into a defensive mode. "

I'm not disagreeing, but how many opponents do you think you need to check when 1 overcard hits? 2 or less I would bet. Somewhere around 4 opponents, I think checking becomes more correct.

In my mind the problem with betting the flop is - what did I learn? I learned only 2 people missed the flop completely, (3 if you count me). If I would have checked, the button would probably have bet, that would give me some information. Not enough to fold, but info.

I think I bet because I usually try to err in favor of being more aggressive when I'm not sure what to do. Course I prefer not to err, at all.

MaxK · #9 12-09-2002, 02:12 PM

AceHigh,

I would probably raise QQ in the BB most of the time (I guess I wouldn't want to commit any move to "all" of the time) just to get money in the pot with the best hand pre-flop and also to take control of the pot on the flop. (But I don't know if I'd do this all of the time because you're out of position with a good number of players in.)

I would bet this flop, not wanting to give a free card. If raised, I'd call and then bet the turn again (folding if raised again). A flop-raise could be a draw or even a lower pair getting frisky (I guess you'd have to judge the players to decide this). If the flop were 3-bet, I'd fold, too, considering this is a passive game.

AceHigh · #10 12-09-2002, 08:11 PM

"I would bet this flop, not wanting to give a free card"

I did some back of the envolope type calculations and I estimated there is an 80% chance somebody has a King. Does that change your mind? Would you check if you knew somebody had a King? How many opponents do would you say you need to check on the flop? I just don't think this bet is profitable. Maybe you can change my mind, but I'm thinking once you get above 3, maybe 4 opponents, checking is the better play.

"If raised, I'd call and then bet the turn again "

I don't know. That just seems too aggressive. I don't think this line is profitable. What if I'm raised and reraised? Didn't I throw away a bet in that case? Don't you think it would be more prudent to check and see what develops? I can always call or maybe even check/raise if I think my opponents is betting a draw.