Thoughts on stack sizes vs player skill, etc...

[Smoove]

I'd much rather play with a fish with 2x buyin than one with 1/2 buyin. And from my experience (mainly NL50.....and to lesser extent on NL100) the people with big stacks are fish a lot more often than they are solid players. And if they are indeed solid players, you'll probably know in the first 10 minutes so you can go find another table.

[fimbulwinter]

I will not adress this point-by-point cos I'm going to sleep. I'll just say this:

There is a reason the best players prefer the deepest games. Being afraid to play deep will keeps your wins consistent and consistently small.

fim

[Matt Flynn]

theworstplayer asked me to give some thoughts on this topic.

in a heads up situation with logical players, the only thing that matters in the size of the smaller stack. the question then becomes how does that change with emotion, etc, and particularly with other players in the pot at some point.

first as to general stack sizes. imo, against a random group of players with stacks in the 100-300bb range, there is a curve of stack value. you lose value if blinds are a big percentage of your stack. once you get above say 10-15bb, you gain value - in a loose game - because you can get players all in easily. to get full short-stack value, you need to be able to see flops profitably with pairs. that means you must be able to call the typical preflop cost and not get blown off your hand often. in many games that is around 40-50bb. i like 60bb a lot because i can play any pair for set equity profitably and can raise enough preflop such that opponents aren't making much by playing pairs against me. furthermore, your decisions are relatively simple: you can decide commitment easily and play accordingly. the combination of short-stack equity and ease of decision making make 60bb my favorite buyin for multitabling 100bb no limit games. time and again people who know who i am online ask me why i buy in below the max. the answer is i play 4-8 tables and it's easy.

i am not really comfortable in a game, however, until i have around 200bb. that's where the room to move, apply pressure and bluff (against similarly-sized stacks) frees up the game.

on to your discussion. first, you can gain big equity by playing a short stack against big stacks that like to mix it up on the flop. whenever you hit a big hand, they will help you get a lot of money in and may even put you all in while playing the other big stacks! if you can multitable in that situation, you've got it made.

against loose poor players you really, really want to have them covered. when the fish are spawning, you throw your rod away and get a net. if someone's got a 300bb stack and will, e.g., routinely go all in with AK or AQ on an ace board, you very much want to have him covered if you can afford it. if you cannot, drop down two limits and play the big fish there. in 100bb capped buyin games, you still want to put chips on the table to get your share of the big money. buy in the full amount.

is someone with a big stack attractive in a lower-limit game? yes. the reason is wild players who can afford it often have big stacks. they get their chips in and sometimes hit. on average, big stacks are not good players in lower-limit online games. once the games tighten up, more skilled players will have the big stacks a higher percentage of the time and the assumption shifts to them being good if you don't see any craziness in the first orbit of observation.

big stacks have little inherent advantage unless they are given one. what often happens is relatively decent players who are thought of as relatively tight loosen up when they have a big stack. lots of players loosen up when winning. the added aggression can be very effective if there are few calling stations. to counter that play you have to be more willing to stick your chips in when it's heads up.

also, something that's easy to overlook is loose big stacks raise the effective stakes of the game. variance and profits increase. so there you are playing $1-2, and suddenly variance-wise you're playing $2-4. if you're playing near the limits of your skill or bankroll as most online players are, you get uncomfortable.

example 1: you are playing 5-10 nl six-handed with me. i am entering every fourth pot, almost always for a raise to $35. stacks are all around $3K. how do you counter?

first, why am i doing that? it's because you are playing weak. i am effectively raising the stakes of the game when i come in, and you are letting me do that and steal at will because you only play back at me with a big hand and i can spot when you have a big hand. (it's harder to spot that online, so i don't play anywhere near that loosely online). how do you counter? reraise me! checkraise me!

if you feel bullied by a big stack, chances are you are not raising enough or are playing stakes above your bankroll or skill.

well there's a lot more to say about stack sizes but there's a start.

matt

[TheWorstPlayer]

Thanks, Matt. It's nice to know how you think about these things and very interesting to see that they are serious considerations up to 5/10 and beyond.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
A: all things being equal, the bigger stack has an advantage in NL. no doubt about this one right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are confusing NL tournaments and NL cash games. There is no real advantage to having me stacked.

If you have $25,000 and I have $250, when we play heads up, we effectively both have $250 since that is the most either one of us can win or lose on the hand.

I understand that in a tournament, the big stack has an advantage, but I do not see how it applies here.

We can always rebuy immediately in a cash game in Small Stakes NL.

*Disclaimer: These comments are for SSNL. I am excluding a situation, where I buy in for $1,000, and that is my whole bankroll, and a superskilled player buys in for $10,000, and plays 'till he busts me.' Is this the advantage you speak of?

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have $25,000 and I have $250, when we play heads up, we effectively both have $250 since that is the most either one of us can win or lose on the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, I'm going all-in preflop every hand. It's +EV.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true, I'm going all-in preflop every hand. It's +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

You lost me man

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have $25,000 and I have $250, when we play heads up, we effectively both have $250 since that is the most either one of us can win or lose on the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, I'm going all-in preflop every hand. It's +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do people insist on saying these ridiculous things? This guy will just wait until he gets a good hand or two, double up a time or two and then leave. You people seem to live in Fairy Tale Game Theory Land.

[fimbulwinter]

For SSNL especially, this is actually wrong.

but not so much so that it warrants a big discussion.

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

Then let's have a small discussion. Are you saying it is wrong because of capped buys?