big O8 downswing

[djr]

maybe I stated it unclearly in which case my bad. I meant A34/A35 are very good hands (and quite playable). The hands I meant are worthless are those like A45x and 245x, which require two cards to make a nut low hand.

[Yads]

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maybe I stated it unclearly in which case my bad. I meant A34/A35 are very good hands (and quite playable). The hands I meant are worthless are those like A45x and 245x, which require two cards to make a nut low hand.

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Weird reading over your post I either misread it or you changed it. Anyway sorry, your original post is quite right.

[BadBatsuMaru]

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First off, do you have Zee's book? I think it is perfect for the microlimits online.

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I just got Zee's book in the mail today. I read Cappelletti's book last week and wasn't all that impressed, although he did seem to know what he was talking about.


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I don't know that I'm playing that badly. My party stats have me seeing about 22% of the flops over several thousand hands, but I've only won 3%.

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Is this outside of the blinds, or including them? I only see about 20% altogether.

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This is just my Party stats from when I right-click on my name. It's total flops seen, including the blinds.

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I'm only playing ring games, 0.5/1 tables with an average pot over $10 and the occasional 2/4 table with an average pot over $40.

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Why the big jump in limits? Does Party not have 1/2? Does the 2/4 just have a reputation of being fishy?

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Most 1/2 tables at party are 6-max.

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high hands all between T-A (except trips)
9-T-J-Q


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This might be your weakness, right here, especially if you are not adjusting for position. High hands lose a lot of their power in these loose, fishy games. You might be bleeding off a lot of little bets by playing ALL of these hands.

As much as it seems contrary to a decent player to play in a tight/passive mode, that is often what is called for in these ultra loose low limit games. I am super tight, hiding in the weeds checking and calling until I cannot be counterfeited, have a scoop-type hand, or have a hand that has more outs than misses and other type situations. Then I can come to life and be ultra aggressive. Until that point, though, I don't sit around bleeding off small and/or big bets to super fishy players who might have 599K and hit a set of nines to my AA23, lol.

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So, you pretty much only play your 10-point hands when you have position? What are your thoughts on marginal hands like 2-3-Q-Q and A-A-4-7 of mixed suits?

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In the long run, at these games, it's so much about the bets we save, not the giant pots we win.

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That is one of my problems. I'll hit a couple big hands and still be down a little bit at the end of a session sometimes, and I think it's my Hold Em background. I get a little confused when I flop an open-ender in O8. A situation where I would absolutely bet in HE turns into something I think I should check/fold. 8 outs just isn't worth it when the board could pair or a 3rd suited card could hit. I suppose I should only be staying in with 20-out straight draws?

Thanks for the big reply.

[FeliciaLee]

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So, you pretty much only play your 10-point hands when you have position? What are your thoughts on marginal hands like 2-3-Q-Q and A-A-4-7 of mixed suits?

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Ray addresses hands like these in detail in his book. In LL, loose games, they can definitely be played. I usually play something like 23QK in last position for only one bet. As you delve more into Ray's book, you'll see the guidelines he sets for certain, marginal hands.

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That is one of my problems. I'll hit a couple big hands and still be down a little bit at the end of a session sometimes, and I think it's my Hold Em background. I get a little confused when I flop an open-ender in O8. A situation where I would absolutely bet in HE turns into something I think I should check/fold. 8 outs just isn't worth it when the board could pair or a 3rd suited card could hit. I suppose I should only be staying in with 20-out straight draws?

Thanks for the big reply.

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Having additional ways to win is one of the cornerstones of O8. Sometimes it sucks so bad, because you are drawing to the nut low, but you know someone else is, too, and that is all you have. It's frustrating, because at best you know you are only getting 25% of the pot, and you are praying that you get a billion overcalls in order to make a nickle or a dime, lol.

Having additional outs to win is such a big part of O8. Oh, man, that backdoor nut flush draw along with a gutshot. That looks soooo much better than solely the nut low!

I'd love to be able to tell you that you need to check/fold more and check/call or bet/raise less, but the fact is, at these super low limit games, they are sometimes betting hands that are virtually dead. I can't tell you the number of times I've had an open-ended straight draw along with 2nd nut low, and been squeezed out thinking I was probably drawing close to dead, when all the while I had the best low out there, along with the best high draw!

I know it's a bummer when people tell you "it depends," but that is the truth. Although it is much easier to lay down hands in O8 than HE and Stud, sometimes you really can see a showdown for one more bet, when you're only playing something like .50/1.00 with absolutely clueless players.

You have to gauge how much it's going to cost you to see the showdown. Usually this can be done depending on your position, and how aggressive that betting has been on the flop and turn.

I'm constantly amazed when the river comes out, ruins both my high and my low, I reluctantly call one bet, and have a scooper, or 3/4.

No, this doesn't happen all the time, and sometimes I really am beat, but getting a feel for the table helps quite a bit.

Here is an example that happened to me the other day. I was playing .25/.50 on UB and was in the BB with A369.

The flop came: 578 with two spades (I had no spade draw).

The turn was a blank.

The river was not only a spade, but a ten, putting a higher straight possibility.

Suddenly, out of nowhere, an EP check-caller bet right out, confidentally.

I thought both sides might be beat. Surely someone had spades, there were four of us left at showdown! But then, no one was ever betting hard on the flop or turn, when the A2 would have made the nut low. Someone would have been betting the low, I'm positive. So I check/call, since I close the betting, being in the BB.

Both my high and low were good and I scooped the pot.

Yet with the exact same hand, in another situation, with the same flop/turn/river, I might have folded that sucker without a moment's hesitation.

So it's hard for me to tell you exactly what hands to play, and how to play them, because how you proceed in one game might cause you to do the exact opposite in another game.

I was playing a low buy-in MTT the other day, O8. I can't even remember the hand, but we had a maniac at the table, trying his best to be the first to bust out, out of 600 people, lol.

Anyway, in EP I checked on the river. He bet right out and got an overcall by a tight player. I folded. My husband, Glenn, was looking over my shoulder at the time and said, "Is that what you had planned all along?" I said, "No, had the maniac bet and the tight player folded, I would have check/raised, not check/folded."

He said, "I thought so."

So in one situation, you might check/raise, whereas in another situation, a check/fold is the correct decision. This even with the same hand and the same board, but against different opponents.

You will get a feel for O8. It can be played so much by rote in the microlimits, even if you solely play like a bot, you will make money.

Good luck!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DOMIT]

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...I get a little confused when I flop an open-ender in O8. A situation where I would absolutely bet in HE turns into something I think I should check/fold. 8 outs just isn't worth it when the board could pair or a 3rd suited card could hit. I suppose I should only be staying in with 20-out straight draws?

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Hi,

I wouldn't go that far regarding the straight draws.. personally, the biggest thing that you have to remember is "will this scoop the pot?" If it will, then you can proceed as in hold'em and look for the 4-1 odds.

Meaning, if the cards that will make your straight will NOT produce a low, then getting 4-1 is fine (although technically it's over 4-1). If your draw WILL produce a low (on a rainbow flop, no pair), then you want more money in the pot.

Say you have 67 and the flop is K45. There is a low draw out there... if you make your straight, even if it's the nut, you WILL be splitting with the low. Therefore, you need to have 8-1, at least, to draw to that. [If it's NOT a rainbow flop, or there is a pair, I wouldn't touch the draw unless I had other outs like having A2 or A3 in my hand.]

Also remember that if it IS a two suited flop, you'll want extra money out there since you might be only drawing to 6 outs, not 8, if the flush gets there. I believe that it was stated something to the affect that if there are at least 4 people in the pot, one of them has the flush draw. (Any one know the correct stats, please feel free to correct this).

As for betting vs check-calling the draws.. I like to have a really strong draw to bet, like nut-nut.. THAT, I'll bet -- I won't raise it, but I'll bet it. I don't raise, because I like Roy Cooke's reasoning regarding drawing hands, that you want callers if you get there to help build the pot. Besides, in LL you're NOT going to get another nut low draw to fold just in the fear that he might be quartered; it just ain't happenin' at LL.

Some might contend that this might differ at higher stakes where you don't constantly have at least 5 idiots in the pot at the beginning of the hand; however, I recall in the beginning of the thread that you stated that you play $0.5/$1.

Good luck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[FeliciaLee]

Jeez, can you believe I'm married to this genius?