ed miller wiating until the turn raise

[QTip]

I'm saying it doesn't apply here because it seems to me that you're talking about pages 160-165 in SSHE (There's been a lot of discussion on these pages in MicroLimits lately which is why I know the pages). These pages talk about when you cannot protect your hand.

1. The bet comes from your left.
2. There are many turn cards that will cripple your hand.
3. The pot is extremely large.

Your scenario doesn't meet any of these scenarios.

You have no reason to believe that someone to your right will bet this flop. Bet for value.

[Ice]

Ed

First let me say your book was Terrific.You took a lot of difficult concepts from TOP and presented them in a very simple and concise way,especially by using hand examples.Well done.

I guess these plays are so situational dependent that it is difficult to generalize.The bottom line if you feel you have the best hand as in the KK example and you think it might get checked through or you are not going to be abe to protect your hand just bet.The reason i brought this up was your example was on pg.163-165 you talk about the KK in a 21.5sb pot and how the player misplayed post-flop by raising the flop and betting the turn.You go on to say that when he raised the flop his opponents were getting over 12.5-1 and that was poor play.

Well if your preflop raise brings in 5 players there are now about 12.5sb in the pot and if your first to act your offering the same odds to your opponents.Again they all have odds to draw and there is nothing you can do about it so i got the IMPRESSION that you should try and go for a checkraise to knock players out and if you can't and it gets checked through to just come out betting on the turn and hope for the best. So what is the difference between those two examples? Since your offering the same odds and would still be betting for value in both cases.Thanks Ice

[Ice]

Qtip

In my example when i check the flop it is very possible that someone with a pair MIGHT bet since it appears i might just have overcards or an underpair. The pot is NOT extremely large but it is decent size since there was my raise pre-flop and i got 4 callers.However, i will grant you this that it is VERY VERY possible it might get checked through and the risk might not be worth going for the checkraise, since you miss all the flop bets. Ice

[QTip]

Ice:

I think this topic is misunderstood and misapplied very frequently. I know I was guitly of this until about 2 weeks ago when I finally got a handle on it. The italics section of pages 164 and 165, mentions to forgoe the flop raise if it increases the liklihood you will be bet into on the turn. This requires position. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of position here or a better to our right.

I used to try for a better on my right in situations like this only to see the person on my immediate left bet or see it checked through...sucks.

[Milky]

Ice,

You seem to be forgetting that you're playing in SMALL STAKES games, where opponents will regularly call on the flop with as little as a 2 outer, because they're bad players. The reason we're saying we'd rarely if ever check AA on that flop is because at these stakes you are probably going to get called by MUCH worse hands (small PPs, runner flushes etc).

TPFAP and Poker Essays are geared more towards higher levels where you're facing thinking opponents.

[Ice]

milky

I don't play small stakes. I play 10-20 through 20-40 mostly 20-40. Soooo you might ask what am i doing here.Well the concepts put forth in Ed's book apply in spades to the games i play and i've been a winning player for 7 years.But Ed's concepts took me to the next level i.e..sb to a bb.

In my games there is a lot more raising and very few flops get checked through,however,many of the players who have played for years DON'T understand the CONCEPTS of playing poker correctly. Whereever i can get information to help me with my game whether in the small stakes forum or medium stakes i don't care if it can get me to think about poker correctly.And i'm going to tell you something some of you guys playing small stakes based on the posts i have read should be playing MUCH higher.Just remember to read and reread Ed's book he turned on the lights.And read all CLARKMEISTER and DYNASTY'S posts and you'll be crushing the small to mid limit games. Ice

[Ice]

Ed

I see the difference with your KK example its where the bet came from on the flop.Sorry i should have caught that.Keep up the good work. Ice

[Milky]

I guess it comes down to the quality of play of your opponents. If you're playing with aggressive, thinking players then HPFAP probably applies more than SSH. The reverse is true if your opponents are bad players (as you say they are).

This information probably would have been useful in your first post.

[tetonpete]

there seem to be some people with the impression that, if people have the correct odds to call you with, you should not bet.
Common sense tells them they should bet TPTK, but then poker is a confusing game and sometimes wefocus on one part of a concept while forgetting the big picture.
Let's say you are heads up with postion and the best hand in a 10BB pot against an opponent with 6 outs.It is checked to you. If you bet, he has the correct odds to call. But his odds on the bet itself are terrible. He is tied to the pot, getting 10-1, so he should call. Now let's pretend that there is no money in the pot. Now, he should not call you for one bet, as he is 8-1 and the pot is offering him one to one.
In the first example, you are using the size of the pot to force him to call a bet that, taken alone, is extremely unprofitable. His small pot equity (6 outs) only slightly mitigates the bad situation he is in. Now that he is in this situation, he has to call, but he loses money with each additional bet he puts in the pot. He just loses a little less than if he didn't call.
You are a 7-1 to one. If you can't protect your hand, you must bet for value. Sometimes you can't know if you are able to protect your hand, and you need to be able to make an educated guess. I think SSH is just trying to show you what situations you should try to protect and when it is likely that you will be able to do so.

[Ice]

This a very good post. When you cant protect your hand you bet for value.Ice