Help!

[jayheaps]

I agree playing tourneys are frustrating. (and i dont have close to the experience that you do.) One thing I have started doing is playing incredibly aggressive early which will enable me to steal lots with my big stacks. If I bust out early, so be it. I'd rather bust out early then play through 6 levels with a small stack and no chance for real money

[FeliciaLee]

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say that some of these tournaments are "poorly strucured." Do they use ante/bring-in structures unlike what you find in mid- and high-limit cash games? Or are they half-hour rounds, or you start with too few chips, or what? Anyway, if they are poorly structured, and they don't suit your style, why play in them?


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Thanks for replying, Andy.

Okay, as far as Commerce goes, this is the structure. They start out with 1000 in chips, 15/30 betting and only 40 minute levels. Almost all of the dealers are fresh out of school, never having dealt a tournament in their lives, and so it is like playing 25 or 30 minute levels. That is what I mean by a "fast" structure.

The reason it is playable is because Commerce offers overlays like guaranteed prize money and added prize money. Not to mention that some players play so badly that they would only cash if lightning struck them.

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And you can't possibly be 100% dead money. You might be a money dog--I've never seen you play--but not dead money.

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Yes, I can be 100% dead money. Not because I can't play. Not because they are better than me, not because of anything external. It's all internal. If I can't beat myself, I cannot beat anyone else. Right now my problem is inside of my own head, which makes me dead money at Commerce (in tourneys, that is).

Your example was a good one. I believe that I can adjust easier in cash games than these speedo-tourneys. I win there, so it is much simpler for me to pump up my game, going in with a better attitude, a winner's attitude.

My results for the Commerce 20/40 Stud and 20/40 Stud 8 were as follows:

1/28/05 Sunday:
+250 Stud/Stud 8 20/40 cash game

2/2/05 Wednesday
+450 Stud 8 cash game

2/3/05 Thursday
-75 Stud 8 cash game

2/4/05 Friday
+400 Stud 8 cash game

2/5/05 Saturday
-800 Stud 8 cash game

These results are pretty typical, except I shouldn't have played on that last Saturday, because I just couldn't shake a bad cold I had. Sure, I was running really, really bad, but I shouldn't have been in the game, period.

The wins should be higher, but like I've said, I don't make the most of my wins, hence the trouble I'm in right now.

As far as Commerce Stud tourneys, I'm 0:5. No cashes, not even close, I only broke the top 50% once. The buy-in's ranged from $500-1000.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[FeliciaLee]

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I think I saw you playing a few satellites while I was playing a satellite of my own, next time you are in town and I see you, I will formally introduce myself.

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Commerce is a strange place. I must have told twenty 2+2 regulars when I would be there, and where I would be, both this year and last year, and not ONE ever introduced himself to me.

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You shouldn't feel that discouraged if you are having success else where and not at Commerce. In LA and Commerce in particular, they/we play at a different speed that takes "outsiders" some time to adjust to.


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I am a winning cash game player at Commerce. I'm just not making the MOST of my winnings. Commerce players are nuts, yeah, but I should take more advantage of that.

I'll give you an example, since you provided some for me.

When players are drawing dead for a low in Stud 8 in AC or Foxwoods, they tend to slow down, go into check-call mode or even give it up, if they are pretty sure they are drawing dead.

NOT at Commerce! Not only are they NOT going into check-call, they are betting and raising while drawing dead! It's amazing. So here I am, with my made 743 low, while they are DRAWING to an 876 low, lol. And they are the ones betting and raising ME! So instead of just constantly making it more bets, I'm thinking of overcalls from the rest of the table. After all, that is what keeps them in the hand on the east coast. The flaw in my thinking is that they are going to stay in there whether I jam or just overcall! They are used to that kind of maniacal play. Here I am begging they don't fold, when I have nothing to worry about on that part. I'm sure you know what I mean, since you are a native, lol [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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My unsubstantiated feel on your play is that you probably fall on the weak tight side, which seems to be prevalent amongst a lot of 2+2ers I notice. That was the problem with my friend that I had mentioned from AC, he was admittly weak tight, because that style of play was good enough to get the money in AC.

Obviously whatever style you have developed has had success, but that is not to say it will have success in any type of game.

See to me, what separates the players from those that play is the ability to change gears. That means cash games or tournaments.


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I think that perhaps I'm more tight/passive than weak/tight. If you are using the definition of "weak" as taking a hand too far when I am in a hand, then I'm definitely NOT weak. I'm too much of a "folding station," lol.

Now, in tourneys at Commerce, yes, I do tend to fall on the weak/tight side, because I can't afford to throw a hand away given the structure. If I only have enough chips to get through a hand or two, I pretty much have to play it out unless I'm beat on the board. There is no wiggle room.

I definitely have to change my tourney style for Commerce. That is a given, or I'm never going to cash.

I'm going to try to play at the Bike next month, for the Winning o' the Green. The buy-in's are smaller, but I'm sure they have the same atrocious structure. I've heard the Stud and Stud 8 games there are fantastic.

I most definitely have to do something. I just want to scream sometimes in these events. I'm baffled at some of the plays I've seen. I'm not one who is easily affected by bad beats. Since I'm so tight, they happen to me all the time. That has been part of my success in poker, my ability not to steam.

So please don't think I'm telling bad beat stories to try to vent or something, I'm simply trying to improve my situation by providing some examples, and asking if there is anything I could have done in these cases.

When the betting structure is 15/30 and we have 1000 in chips, it's hard to maneuver well. Only 33x the BB, and only getting about 10 hands in per level is tough.

1) So I am dealt two live aces. The player on my right is dealt two live queens. We are both split. He completes, I raise. I bet this hand the whole way, catching my kicker, a jack, right on fourth. He never improves his queens. I catch his queen on fifth. He sighs, but still won't give up. He turns to me and says, "I need to catch the case queen to beat you. I know you have aces and jacks, and that if I catch two pair I won't win, but I just can't lay down the queens."

He catches the case queen on seventh. I'm out not long after.

2) I am dealt a three straight flush in Stud. A player with jacks completes. Four of us see fourth. I catch another small diamond on fourth. Jacks bets, I raise, the other two fold. My diamonds were completely live until fourth, where two fell, one of them on the high side of my straight flush draw, the six.

On fifth I make a wheel. I still have my flush draw, but the guy with the jacks has caught another diamond.

I check-raise him because by catching the ace I am now high. He calls.

On sixth he calls.

On seventh he raises. He never improved his jacks, until he caught four runnning diamonds, although I also had four, and two other diamond were dead on other boards.

I'm out not long after.

3) In an Omaha 8 tourney, I am dealt AA24 with a suited ace. I make it three bets before the flop virtually putting me all-in. The BB calls two cold with 99JK. He makes his set, turns a FH and I'm out.
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These are the things that baffle and confuse me. Why were they in with this stuff, and why did some of them chase all the way til the river? Yeah, some of it is simply no other choice. They know we have no chips and have to chip up early, so they just "go for it" no matter how dead they are drawing.

I could provide literally dozens more of these examples, jkinetic (and all of you poor readers who have to wade through this), but I'm sure you well know California play by now, lol.

I just can't force myself to push, push, push as an underdog like they do. I can't wake up and smell the coffee, so to speak, I suppose.

And this is why I cried out for help. Now, can I actually change, or get someone to coach me through this miserable crossroads of mine... that is the real question!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Bill Murphy]

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So instead of just constantly making it more bets, I'm thinking of overcalls from the rest of the table.

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Bingo. I used to do this all the time in HE. Andy's example of a value bet was wonderful, too. Just remember, you'll be check-raised & re-raised more often, so your variance will increase, but the extra bets will make up for it.

As for the tourneys, you're just running bad, plus they're a crapshoot by the sound of it. Don't worry about it.

[FeliciaLee]

As an FYI, I'm going to be taking a break for a bit.

Sure, I'll play some of the little Laughlin tourneys, and maybe even the LL O8 games there, but I'm going to skip the big buy-in events and mid-limit stuff for a while, until I can get my head on straight again.

The mail I've gotten from some of the top players (both cash game players and tourney pros) has confirmed that I cannot get any help right now, with the huge poker boom, and help I do need to get past this crossroads.

The icing on the cake was the Mirage 2+2 meeting. Mason pretty much confirmed everything everyone else has been saying, plus he looked at me like I had two heads when I said I just couldn't "catch the passion" of hold'em, and vastly prefer Stud games/tourneys.

I also played very badly in the 3/6 HE with the 2+2er's, not raising enough, not knowing when I was beat after the flop (granted, they were mostly all playing like monkeys, so it was hard to know), and steaming a bit because I hate the Mirage, the situation we were in and the whining regular who sat in our game then proceeded to tell us how moronic we are were, while at the same time refusing to find another 3/6 game.

In other words, I'm finally letting my emotions affect my play, which has never happened before. The old adage, "You know you need a break when..." has come right to my doorstep.

So I'll be here, but I won't be playing much Stud, I'd imagine.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Randy Burgess]

I don't think I saw this mentioned - why not play just short-handed for a few months? Just as in hold'em, it would force you to make adjustments for thin value and extra agression & get you out of that overly tight ring-game mentality. Very useful for the later stages of a tourney.

[Gitz]

Good Luck Felicia that's why I suggested John Feeney for the mental part of the game.

Paul

[7stud]

The icing on the cake was the Mirage 2+2 meeting. Mason pretty much confirmed everything everyone else has been saying, plus he looked at me like I had two heads when I said I just couldn't "catch the passion" of hold'em, and vastly prefer Stud games/tourneys.

lol.

[TheShootah]

I can really relate to you on the point about not catching the hold em bug. NLHE is at the bottom of my list when it comes to poker. I still like it, but certainly not anywhere near how much I like all the other games. Maybe I will see you playing some O8 on UB...I am gonna get on there soon.

[SittingBull]

There are some excellent psychologists on the site. Your problem is psychology reated.
happy Pokering,
SittingBull