AA vs KK

[iceman5]

I played this hand at $1/$2 NL stakes, but the concepts apply at any max buy in game. Tell me if you think theres anything either player could/should do differently.

For now I wont say if I had AA or KK.

UTG has KK and raises to $5, UTG+1 calls. The BB has AA and raises to $12. UTG reraises to $26. UTG+1 folds. BB flat calls.

Pot is $58. BB started the hand with $250. UTG had $400.
The flop comes AdKs4s. BB has AA with the As. BB leads out for $30. UTG with KK flat calls.

Pot is $118. The turn is the 8s. BB bets $50 and UTG calls.
Pot is $218. The river is a non spade blank (3 I think). BB pushed all in for about $140 or so and UTG calls.

Can it be played better/differently?
I guess my main question is this: If KK is willing to play for his stack with the hopes that BB doesnt have AA, should he just make a large flop raise and get it over with?

[MagikKid]

Perhaps this is not mathematically sound, but for me it has merit. How I play KK depends somewhat on how I am running. I definitely want to get some money in preflop, but am not always thrilled about getting allin. Often I prefer to scan the flop for an ace, and guage my opponents reaction to the flop before commiting the rest of my stack. This comes as a result of burning up a considerable amount of money with opponents calling allin raises with big suited aces, and then spiking an ace on the flop. Especially when I am running bad, it seems an A shows an inordinate amount of times on the flop when I hold KK. While I believe this can be construed as confirmation bias, it has also led me to take a few more flops with KK than I used to. This is, of course, somewhat dependent on the level of competition, whether or not the table is shorthanded, and also dependent on the depth of the money. I personally just hate to lose to some chucklehead who calls an allin reraise with AQs when I hold KK and spikes an A. I believe the reverse implied tilt odds [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] for me justify making big reraises, but often not moving in preflop with KK. Especially against opponents whom I can outplay postflop. I will say that I am more apt to get allin if I am going to have to play the hand out of position.

On this particular hand, with KK, I probably would have gone ahead and moved on the flop, hoping he had AK or a spade draw with the As. If someone is lucky enough to flop a set of aces over my kings, then I am just going to have to pay him off. If he is on the spade draw, I want him to pay the rest of his money to try to make it.

Magik

[parttimepro]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my main question is this: If KK is willing to play for his stack with the hopes that BB doesnt have AA, should he just make a large flop raise and get it over with?


[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like the BB is betting UTG's hand for him. If UTG raises on the flop, he pushes out worse hands and gets called by better ones. Given the preflop betting, UTG can't be too worried that BB has 2 spades here (especially since the K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is on the board), so he's either way way ahead or way way behind. When the 3rd spade comes on the turn, I think UTG should raise enough to make it incorrect for A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to call, and also to build the pot with the probable best hand. If the river is a 4th spade, UTG either loses to a flush or doesn't get any action from a non-flush hand.

From BB's perspective, I would LOVE this flop. UTG has pretty much defined his hand as KK, and he's not getting away from it. Bet 3/4 pot on flop representing AK or AQ, then push the turn. BB wants it all in before the river because a 4th spade could kill his action.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

This is atrocious advice-determining how to play a hand based on how well you've been running or not wanting to get it in against AQ because you hate getting beat? EXPECTED EARNINGS OF EACH APPROACH DO NOT DIFFER BASED ON PAST RESULTS. In a month you'll talk about how you kept seeing a flop because you wanted to see if an Ace flops and people kept flopping sets. So now you can't raise all in preflop because you'll always lose to an ace, and you can't see a flop because people keep flopping sets. So now you might as well muck KK preflop because you're only drawing to 2 outs.

[iceman5]

I would have to agree with you 100% Foxwood. Last month, 4 times in a row that I had KK, the other guy had AA. That didnt stop me from playing my hand the same way I normally would. The odds will even out in the long run and I have seen AA vs my KK in quite a while now.

In this hand I was the BB with AA. I was 99% sure he had KK. Ive seen him raise KK and AA to $5 several times. When he reraised my reraise preflop, I was almost postive he had KK. I like the way I played it. I couldve pushed in at the turn, but it wouldve been about $220 into a $120 pot and I wasnt sure about that. I thought that MIGHT be enough to let him get away from his hand.

The reason I posted this was because I was wondering how I would play KK in that spot. I did have KK vs AA where we both flopped a set a while back and lost my stack. The action was different that time, but still, Id like to find a way to minimize the damage when this happens. Its probably not really possible though.

[turnipmonster]

I don't really like the way this hand was played by either player, assuming when you say "to 12" you mean 12 total. what exactly does all this minraising accomplish? seems to me your opponent is making is 12 for only a couple of reasons:
1) he has a monster, and wants to induce a reraise
2) he has a ok but sort of weak hand.

in the first case, you want to give him what he wants and reraise him big. in the second case, you still want to discourage him from reraising you lightly for all the times that you don't have AA UTG. seems to me like in either case you want to force opponent to commit an uncomfortable portion of his stack preflop.

postflop, all the underbetting and slowplaying is quite silly, as all the money is going in anyways and there are no hands given the action preflop that are going to crying call you. either he's got cowboys or AK and you are getting action no matter what or he's got QQ and you aren't.

as usual, I think it's better just to bet and raise the pot in situations like this.

[iceman5]

Yeah, I agree that I couldve/shouldve reraised more preflop, but I was fairly certain that he had KK based on previous play and I figured he would reraise for me and get the other caller out.

I didnt min reraise him. That wouldve been a raise to $8. Point taken though.

You say the moneys going in no matter what. So are you saying, theres now way you would get away from KK there? I think thats my main question.
I mean, what else am I reraising preflop and giving that much action during the hand with. AK would be the only other hand.

[turnipmonster]

I just meant your average player is not getting away from KK here, it would be a relatively big laydown. besides, if he calls the flop he is calling his whole stack and knows it. he's not going to call the flop and then fold the turn with KK. so your bet on the flop, he's either making a huge laydown or all the money is going to the middle.

the big problem I see is that all this small raising is giving away a lot of info at a relatively cheap price. I mean, how many hands will you put in the 3rd raise with preflop? of those hands, how many of them will then bet an AKx flop? also, think about how your opponent's decision changes if he commits and bigger or smaller % of his stack preflop.

--turnipmonster

[MagikKid]

I only said I like to see flops with KK before committing my whole stack when I am certain I can outplay my opponent on the flop. I also said that if I am out of position I am much more likely to move in. I also mentioned tilt odds and said that while it may not be mathematically sound to alter the way one plays KK, for me it can become a correct play psychologically. Sometimes I am willing to slightly decrease my mathematical advantage to maintain my sanity. I also mentioned this depends on my level of competition. If the level of competition is low, I become less likely to gamble with them because they are going to give the money up anyway. It was not "advice" per se.

I also wrote about the way I would play the hand in the given situation. Are you really going to pick out one thing in my reply and discount the rest of what I said?

Give me a break.

Magik

[MagikKid]

I would like to make it clear that I lose my money every time with this flop. I think he played it very poorly on the flop, and mentioned my reasoning for moving in. I was merely pointing out for the guy holding KK it is not always best to move in preflop. I actually misread your original post and thought you had questioned KK moving in before the flop as opposed to on the flop. Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding.

Magik