a hand MLG and Tyler disagreed about

[docknet]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand should be mucked pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Here. Here. Out of position and for a raise. I muck preflop here.

[MonkeeMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Put your self, in the CO spot w/ the KhQh and replay the hand. How would you play the hand in his shoes w/ the given action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm not close to being able to put an opponent on the exact two cards in his hand (I think Unger could do this on a good day though). If, however, we say CO had KQ, then he didn't bet enough on the flop IMO.

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of my flop play? Thanks much.
Party $100 NL MTT.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 (t450)
MP2 (t2280)
MP3 (t860)
CO (t2255)
Button (t755)
SB (t1720)
<font color="#C00000">BB (t3130)</font>
UTG (t2140)
UTG+1 (t625)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t910)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t20, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t65</font>, CO calls t65, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t55, BB calls t45, UTG calls t45, Hero calls t45, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t410) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t125</font>, SB folds, BB calls t125, UTG folds, Hero calls t125, MP3 calls t125.

Turn: (t910) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero is all-in for 720, MP3 folds, CO folds, BB calls t720.

River: (t1630) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1630

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Tc 9h (two pair, tens and nines).
Hero has Td Qd (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t1630. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

If your calling this preflop raise it merits that you must play this flop very carefully. I dont think you played it very carefully. I think you very carelessly gambled on the turn and just got flat lucky. I dont see how you can't credit someone for a set, 2 pair, or let alone top pair.

[docknet]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how the preflop limp can be debated?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's simple, man. You had lousy position. I see players acquiring big stacks early on with this kind of stuff. But if they keep playing OoP, they lose.

[Nate tha' Great]

I'm no tourney expert but the flop call seems pretty awful here. You don't have enough made hand, and your paths to improvement are convoluted at best. What's more, your position on the turn is going to be poor with the BB acting before you and the PFR acting after you. There's still another player left to act on the flop, and the 10% of the time or what have you that he check-raises, you've thrown money away. What's more, you seem to have found yourself a good, active table and you should have better opportunities in the future. The flop is the problem here IMHO.

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put your self, in the CO spot w/ the KhQh and replay the hand. How would you play the hand in his shoes w/ the given action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm not close to being able to put an opponent on the exact two cards in his hand (I think Unger could do this on a good day though). If, however, we say CO had KQ, then he didn't bet enough on the flop IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was MP3 with the KQ h, I would have played the flop the same way as he did.

[MLG]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think an easy mistake to make, and one that I'm trying to cut down on, is limping in with hands like these too early, and then feeling compelled to call a raise because the math is telling me I have good odds. But the bottom line is, I only have good odds because of money I've already put into the pot, which I shouldn't have put in in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

As pointed out in HoH, just because the limp was a mistake doesn't make the raise call a mistake too. If this new value is still in an OK range of your total stack then it is correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that concept. I'm not saying fold to the raise. I'm saying that I wonder how much money I cost myself in tournaments where I make a bad limp, then get tied into a pot where I flop a draw that misses, etc. Most of the time after the hand I look back and admit I shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, good analysis Nate. Keep this up, and you may have to change the number in your locator.

[Prime Time]

welcome to your party.