Folding Kings up on fifth street

MRBAA · #1 02-14-2005, 10:58 AM

Party $3-6. Jon1van saw this one. I complete with split kings, make kings up on fourth, one of my kings is dead. I got in a raise on fourth, as someone else bet. Three opponents in on fifth, pot size about $40, and on fifth what looks like a str8 but could also be two pair bets $6, three suited cards raises to $12 and I lay down my big two pair in a heartbeat. The str8 draw/two pair saw the raise and a bet from the flush on sixth (the other player folded to the two bets on fifth). Then he folded the river(?) so we never saw if the flush was really there.

BeerMoney · #2 02-14-2005, 01:10 PM

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Party $3-6. Jon1van saw this one. I complete with split kings, make kings up on fourth, one of my kings is dead. I got in a raise on fourth, as someone else bet. Three opponents in on fifth, pot size about $40, and on fifth what looks like a str8 but could also be two pair bets $6, three suited cards raises to $12 and I lay down my big two pair in a heartbeat. The str8 draw/two pair saw the raise and a bet from the flush on sixth (the other player folded to the two bets on fifth). Then he folded the river(?) so we never saw if the flush was really there.

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Wow, the big laydown to two scary boards. In all seriousness, this seems like a response to others who are talking about how big pairs can be tricky to play. This is so disappointing. OF course there are times when these are autofold.

"Jon 1van saw this" LOL. If you're gonna post a hand, post one that you have a question on, not to display your poker prowess.

Michael Emery · #3 02-14-2005, 02:12 PM

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Wow, the big laydown to two scary boards. In all seriousness, this seems like a response to others who are talking about how big pairs can be tricky to play. This is so disappointing. OF course there are times when these are autofold.

"Jon 1van saw this" LOL. If you're gonna post a hand, post one that you have a question on, not to display your poker prowess.

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I totally agree. The only reason you posted this is because I jumped on your case about advising people to routinely muck big pairs on fifth multiway. Realize in your original post regarding big pairs on fifth this is exactly what you said. Nothing was mentioned of facing a bet and a raise on fifth street from two scary boards like here. Of course this fold was proper in most instances. Your taking things out of the original context here to make yourself sound correct.

If in your original response to BEER you had said something like. "Beer the horse race factor (from TOP) comes into play multiway and you must be aware that a lone big pair on fifth, while quite possibly best at the moment, must be played cautiously in some situations. Basically like the horse race factor explains your hand is sensitive to all the possible draws out aginst you. Even though you might have the best hand at the moment you could still be a money dog to win the pot. This dosent at all mean to give a free card but just to be somewhat cautious and in certain situations willing to release on fifth (i.e against a paired door, a bet and a raise from two flush/strait boards that could already be there, if your hand is completely dead and the pot somewhat small, and the like). Not something like "Hey BEER, I'll save you some money. Muck your big pairs fifth if its multiway since they play best against fewer opponents". This is what you originally said in your first response and why I made my comment stating that you were incorrect. This was a silly post by you trying to make a point.

Mike Emery

Randy Burgess · #4 02-14-2005, 02:37 PM

Why do you insist on flaunting what you call your "knowledge" of stud? You are abusing this forum as a mirror for your vanity! And yet didn't you admit to me recently that if you had a housecat, it could play a better game than you? And haven't you been unable to win in the train game since they removed the bar cars and your opponents are no longer blind drunk?

In all honesty it is out of place for you to assume such a bombastic tone, especially since most posters to this forum can outplay you drunk or sober. To remedy your playing defects I counsel you to re-read Roy West, stay away from SCSFAP, and spend a little more time at the .25/.50 tables. To remedy your personal defects I suggest you join a monastery and take a vow of silence for a year.

When you return from the monastery (assuming your household has not decamped in your absence), the final touch should be to acquire a housecat and take playing lessons from it. Then maybe you'll have sufficient maturity to resume posting here.

MRBAA · #5 02-14-2005, 02:55 PM

When I stop laughing.

Seriously, Michael whether you are misinterpreting deliberately or not, this was exactly the type of situation I was referring to -- multiple players WITH ACTION. It is a big laydown, in a fairly big pot. The kind that should be made very selectively. To represent my advice as you have is just silly. I posted this (and noted it to Jon) just to give an example of the type of situation I meant.

Here's my post:

Beer, I am about to help you. Alot. Big pairs on fifth with multiway action are weak drawing hands in stud. Unlike hold'em they will rarely hold up unimproved and should often be folded.

Sticking it out with these hands in multiway action pots is not a leak, it's a massive gaping hole.

I think what's led to misunderstanding is my phrase "multiway action" was unclear. I didn't must mean multiple players -- I meant multiple players showing aggression, as I made clear in my later responses in that thread.

btw, Michael, my challenge stands anytime: $100 each heads up 1-2 stud at party, with a time limit of 1/2 hour (or less if one of us is busted).

BeerMoney · #6 02-14-2005, 03:07 PM

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When I stop laughing.

Seriously, Michael whether you are misinterpreting deliberately or not, this was exactly the type of situation I was referring to -- multiple players WITH ACTION.

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Michael didn't misinterpret anything. How can you expect people to understand the situation you are discussing if you don't explain it.

I'm sure everybody on here has folded a straight, a flush, or even possibly a baby boat. No one is saying we can't fold a hand as crummy as one pair. Its just that they become difficult to play..

For example, you were somewhat fortunate in that the action came to you, instead of betting yourself, then getting raised and falling into the trap of "oh well, already put one in.."

This whole thing has gotten out of control, and you can't seem to let it die. People I have spoken with outside of the situation are saying you come across as pompous. So, take that as you will. Also, Michael challenged you to play and you backed down like a little fkking p**sy.

So please stop making posts about how everyone who struggles with a game is a moron, and you and your equally dorky friend are so fukking awesome. Now, go ahead and go all the way down on Randy Burgesses' schlong like I know you like to.

MRBAA · #7 02-14-2005, 03:12 PM

Okay, Beer. I'll stay out of threads you start. You stay out of mine. Fair?

BeerMoney · #8 02-14-2005, 03:22 PM

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Okay, Beer. I'll stay out of threads you start. You stay out of mine. Fair?

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I don't see the need to do that. My threads aren't posted to belittle you or anyone else, so I see no reason to ask you to stay out of mine. However, if I think your threads are doing that very such thing, I will continue to stick up for myself or others. Fair?

Randy Burgess · #9 02-14-2005, 03:31 PM

This guy Beer truly hates you by now. And he hates me, too, even though I don't think he knows anything about me other than that I'm associated with you. Can I divorce you as my co-author on the hold'em book?

At the very least, stop mocking those who struggle with this game! I remember you struggling a lot with stud several years ago ... those long car drives back from Foxwood, vowing to give up $1/$3 no-ante stud as just too tough to beat. How the memories fade, eh, Mr. Big Shot?

BeerMoney · #10 02-14-2005, 03:34 PM

Michael, one thing about the horse race concept is that while it makes total sense, it isn't an easy concept to put into play because although you may have a less than 1/n chance to win the pot, there already is money in the pot. So, it may not be correct to be betting your hand, it could be ok to be calling bets,, Right?