calling a push

johnnybeef · #1 02-11-2005, 05:39 PM

after a losing day yesterday, i went back to review some hh's to see where i was going wrong. two of the aspects of my game that i realized needs work is when to call a push, and when to go over top of someone when it is 4 or 5 handed. i know the 2:1 if <1/3 of your stack rule and to push with more marginal hands against someone who is jockeying for a stack. that being said, could someone please outline a few examples of when and why it is correct to call a push?

thank you,
johnny

krille · #2 02-11-2005, 05:57 PM

http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.htm

check this out

11t · #3 02-11-2005, 06:01 PM

If the stacks are all pretty even and there is one short stack who pushes into you, even if you are getting odds it might be best to lay down really weak hands.

Scuba Chuck · #4 02-11-2005, 06:19 PM

Mr Beef. I'm willing to work with you you. But you have to first post some examples that you think my be right first. And also, list your GENERAL RULE of hands that you would be calling with. Meaning, these are the hands you will always call with, in any scenario. Let's assume Level 4+

johnnybeef · #5 02-11-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.htm

check this out

[/ QUOTE ]

not working

sofere · #6 02-11-2005, 06:39 PM

Should be .html not .htm

johnnybeef · #7 02-11-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mr Beef. I'm willing to work with you you. But you have to first post some examples that you think my be right first. And also, list your GENERAL RULE of hands that you would be calling with. Meaning, these are the hands you will always call with, in any scenario. Let's assume Level 4+

[/ QUOTE ]

ok let me find a few. to answer your question...hands that i will always call with without exception are jj+, ak, aqs. the rest are all situationally dependent.

Scuba Chuck · #8 02-11-2005, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...hands that i will always call with without exception are jj+, ak, aqs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good, so with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK and AQs, you will always call an allin bet. FWIW, I only follow 5 of those, but we're all different.

So, next question, why is it that you're only limiting yourself to 5 hands? (Hint: I am interested in a discusson on odds, and consequences)

johnnybeef · #9 02-11-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...hands that i will always call with without exception are jj+, ak, aqs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good, so with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK and AQs, you will always call an allin bet. FWIW, I only follow 5 of those, but we're all different.

So, next question, why is it that you're only limiting yourself to 5 hands? (Hint: I am interested in a discusson on odds, and consequences)

[/ QUOTE ]

when on the bubble the proper strategy is extreme aggression with hands that are marginal+ (i.e. any A, Kxs, suited connector, two faces, etc.) in a full handed game. Therefor, it stands to reason that when calling an all in bet with the aforementioned hands you stand to be a favorite as the range of hands you are most likely up against are much worse then these. To quantify this, lets take a look at these hands and add together the collective amount of hands that you are an underdog against.

JJ: QQ,KK,AA (3)
QQ: KK,AA (2)
KK: AA (1)
AA: (0)
AK: because you are a slight dog against any pair i will quantify all pairs QQ and below as 55% of a hand so 11x.55= 6 + AA + KK = (8)
AQs: 8 (all hands that are beat by AK) + AK,KK = 10 and then i will subtract a hand due to the fact that you can make a nut flush with this hand which brings our total to (9).

When all of these hands are added together, we have 23 hands that can beat the range of hands that i will call with. when we take a ratio of this compared to the 91 possible 2 card combinations you can be up against we get 23/91 = 25%, if we subtract aq off this list, the number of times we will be an underdog will be is 14/91 = 15 % of the time.

These calculations are all good and well, but odds are only part of the story...if i only call a push with AA,AK,KK,QQ,JJ i am a target to get destroyed as 4&5 handed can be a warzone.

i realize that it might be best to stick to this rule when up against a push from a passive player, but what should i do against someone who is as aggro as i am?

Scuba Chuck · #10 02-11-2005, 09:42 PM

Great odds analysis. Far more than I expected. If I could award extra credit, you'd deserve it.

Let me sum up your statement. IF YOU ARE GOING TO CALL, you want to be sure to call with a hand that you dominate the villain. Otherwise, fold.

I think the above principal holds true, all of the time that you're playing seven handed. You MIGHT loosen these standards when you get to four handed. One caveat tho, stacksize matters in this decision as well (discussion for another day).

The consequence of calling with a less dominant hand leads to what? IMO, a coinflip. You will undoubtedly play coinflips in an SnG, but why do you want to put your tournament life on the line this early with a coinflip? Do you agree?

If so, assuming the BB, also knows this. What is your pushing standards?