Interesting $25/$50 NL Hand - Page 5

WorldBeater · #41 02-10-2005, 04:50 AM

"Yours is close to the minimum non-(semi)bluffing hand you could have if bets go in on the flop and turn. Your opponent knows this, and he has a perfect opportunity to capitalize by adjusting his bluffing frequency. This puts you in a spot where you can't call, can't fold either. "

Can you explain the part about the opponent adjusting his bluffing frequency as it relates to the paragraph above?

Jason Strasser · #42 02-10-2005, 10:02 AM

Thats fine Bruiser. I'm just saying be prepared to face these extremely tough river calls over and over against aggressive opposition. If you dont mind this spot, then accept it as a part of your strategy to maximize EV and deal with the river. You obviously don't want to slow down your opponent with your check/call line.

I'll accept that leading the flop is maybe conservative and I am not completely in touch with the texture of this game, but why not lead the turn? Is it a crime to add a little definition to your hand and possibly learn a bit about where your opponent stands?

-Jason

Jason Strasser · #43 02-10-2005, 10:08 AM

Oh yeah.

This "I don't mind facing a bit river bet" mentality is good and all, until you start folding the best hand because you didn't do anything to slow your opponent down. His range of hands, as you describe, is long. Leading the turn, which I think would be the best thing to do, would at least give you an idea about where your hand stands.

You obviously cant check/call to the river and fold to big bets regularly aggainst the type of opponent u describe. In my book, its not a crime to give up a little EV and headache (dealing with a massive river decision) to slow an aggressive opponent down even when you have the best hand, which will obviously not always be the case.

-Jason

ML4L · #44 02-10-2005, 01:57 PM

Hey Bruiser,

Here's the thing. If you aren't practically auto-calling a big river bet here, I think you can find a better line. Folding the turn is better than calling the turn and folding the river.

The check-call line is great when you feel like your opponent is going to fire two or three barrels with too many of his no-pair hands. But, like I told you after the AK hand with magicpitch, if you routinely take this line with decent, aggressive players in an online game where the only tell that you have is bet size and timing (both of which generally being moot on UB, where people auto "bet-pot" with good hands and bluffs), you are going to get owned. Simple as that.

ML4L

cero_z · #45 02-10-2005, 02:18 PM

Hi Mike,

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't practically auto-calling a big river bet here, I think you can find a better line. Folding the turn is better than calling the turn and folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes in general, but in this case, the river card wasn't exactly a blank. Bruiser was probably planning to call on the river the majority of the time (maybe he can confirm/dispel this idea). The Queen of Spades is probably the worst card that could hit, if Bruiser's trap is working; the Js would also be bad, as would another 9.

I might've played the hand differently on the turn, and I might've called on the river (very difficult to say without being there), but I don't blame him for folding. This has got to be a close decision at worst.

cero_z · #46 02-10-2005, 02:26 PM

Hi Bruiser,

[ QUOTE ]
On the river I think he knows just what I have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Don't be so sure. Your play may be working like magic. The problem is, even if this is the case, that card may have beaten you in various ways.

Especially troubling is your note that the Ace on board is NOT the spade. If it was, and the guy wasn't playing crazy, then you'd really only have to worry about T9s, J9s, 98s, and AQ. Having a different card be a spade presents many more possibilities. That said, the flush did come backdoor, and he's bet on every street. It's just not super-likely that he has a flush. So, it basically comes down to your feel; is he trapped, was he trapped but just escaped, or did he flop a huge hand? Hard for us to say; you went with your read, which has served you well so far. Smile.

shaniac · #47 02-10-2005, 04:30 PM

My NL experience is informed mostly by tournament play, but I'm pretty sure that I would play your holding much differently.

I would charge my opponent with a check-raise on the flop or turn, most likely cr'ing the flop and, if he calls, making a healthy (maybe 3/4 pot-size) bet on the turn.

Is that a crazy way to play it? I'm not sure, but AK looks an awful lot like the best hand on the flop and playing it agressively seems the best way and the right time to extract information and make a meaningful decision. It seems a lot easier to reduce his range by poking him on the flop....making decisions with premium hands is a lot more difficult on the river than it is on the flop for me, usually.

I like the preflop smooth call with AK here but the only way I would check-call the flop is if I planned on checkraising or betting the turn. Am I wrong in thinking check-raising the turn is the best way to extract chips from an over-aggr. player? Will you make more off this kind of opponent by calling down big river bets?

Shane

theBruiser500 · #48 02-10-2005, 04:41 PM

yes i was planning on calling the river and i almost claled with the river that came but as you say it was a bad card.

Jason Strasser · #49 02-10-2005, 04:41 PM

Shaniac,

In a tournament its fine to go beserk with AK because you'll get paid off by a ton of hands in this spot. A check raise on the flop here is a weird play in my book because if you get called, then you have good reason to be scared, and if you dont, then you just lost some equity because aggro players will often fire the turn as well with nada.

check/call flop is much better deep stack nl play here than check/raise... Unless you are ready to go to war down to the felt with your pair.

RDWallace · #50 02-10-2005, 07:03 PM

Bruiser: Assuming your opponent is at all attuned to his table image, two flat calls on the flop and turn after a flat call preflop make your hand appear much weaker than it is. If i were the maniac in this spot, I might well put you on a very marginal hand, even a holding as marginal as 88 or 98s. I tend to think that the best approach is to define your hand either on the flop or turn with a check-raise. If you choose to check-call the turn you must realize that you could well be faced with a large river bet and very little information to face it with. Because this bet may well be larger than the size of the pot, you are not getting a very good overlay to pick off his bluff, or at least not as much as you would like.
In this instance, because you checked to him a third time your opponent probably reached the conclusion that your hand was very marginal. Had he in fact made a backdoor flush/set/two pair on the river i would expect a smaller value bet. In this spot, facing a $4100 bet, i think you have to pay off with your AK. Your check-check-check play may indeed be +EV, but it is also highly volatile.