How Much is in the Pot?: From PP to B&M

[Goon2]

I went to Philadephia MS this weekend to play some 3/6. I won't bore you all with my horrible beats. I write for a different reason.

I have become lazy as an avid Party Poker player. I usually two table, sometimes three table, with PT running. I have become reliant on the pot size calculation, which rests conveniently in the middle of the table. So when it's time to make a decision and calculate pot odds, I can do so quickly and easily because the pot size is in the middle of the screen.

As you know, the B&Ms don't calculate pot size for you, and you really don't want to scare the fish by asking for help from the dealer. I figured there were two ways to do it.

First, simply count the bets as they go in, then divide by half after the turn. The problem was it seemed like everything was happening so fast. Between looking at my cards, making fold/call/raise decisions and attempting to appear like I was there to have a good old time for table image reasons, I often lost count of the number of bets in. This was pretty frustrating. A few times I really had to run through everything in my mind to ensure I was making a correct call/raise. This slooows up play and alerts your opponents that you might actually be thinking something they aren't. I am still not sure if I had the math right. You spend most of your brain cells keeping track of the number of bets in the pot that you have trouble doing anything else.

Second, as a guy in Vegas told me, you can get a starting point by looking at how much the dealer has raked. At a certain point he takes a chip -- indicating the pot has reached a certain threshold. This isn't always accurate because there could be more bets in there than needed to trigger the threshold. And you may not be able to see the dealer deposit the rake if you have a bad seat.

So, I ask. Do any of you have any tricks to solve this problem? Or, am a just a moron (please don't honestly answer that question)?

[DMBFan23]

the way I handle this is two fold:

1) I count the bets as they go in, as best I can

2) when you play a lot you form associations between common preflop situations and odds on the flop implicitly, especially if you analyze the play of specific hands after the fact like so many of us 2+2ers do. an example: "the pot was raised preflop and is 7 handed, so I have odds to draw to my gutshot plus overcards." or "2 players limped in, so I don't have odds to draw to my 5 outer on the flop". the same analogy applies to the turn, ie "well, enough people called on the flop that I can draw to my 6 outer again on the turn".

but none of 2) replaces being able to keep track of the bets in your head.

[DeathDonkey]

Count the preflop bets when the flop is coming down. Just see how many people are in the pot and then multiply by how many bets per person occurred. Sometimes you have to add one or whatever if the BB folds but this is much quicker than counting the bets one at a time. This becomes second nature after awhile. When the dealer says "5 in" or whatever as he deals the flop you should automatically have the pot size in SBs in your head.

If there are no tough decisions on the flop but you are still in then just wait til the action ends, repeat what you did before, add it to the running total, and then divide by 2 and now think BB for the rest of the hand.

By the way, I see this alot and don't understand it. You really shouldn't have to look back at your hand after your initial preflop action ever. I suppose memorizing your hole cards goes hand in hand with remembering the number of bets in the pot, but these things should be second nature to you.

I also don't tend to actually do math at the table, I have been in certain situations enough times that I have a feel for what my odds are and don't calculate it so specifically. I imagine most players that know the odds etc do this and aren't actually sitting there calculating their outs each hand.

I don't like the rake idea to guesstimate the pot size FWIW.
You're probably not a moron but you do need to just practice this and it will become something you hardly think about, but just do. I'm sure this is similar to how card counters think when playing blackjack but wouldn't know myself.

-DeathDonkey