was this KK weakly played?

[jbright]

in general I think I've progressed to playing solid TAG or semi-LAG nl at the low-stakes tables... but every once in a while I get tied up in a confusing hand and lapse into weak-tight or passive poker. Is the following hand an example of this? How would the better players handle this situation? My site won't convert, so I'll have to summarize:

I'm UTG with about $110 at a .50/$1 table (100x buy-in). Look down to see K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

raise 4x, folded all the way to the bb ($130), who calls.

bb has been very active at the table, but erratic - lots of pfr, steal attempts, c/r, but also some odd min bets and other nonsense. Can't tell if he has a method or is just randomly throwing money around.

($9) Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets $2, I raise to $10. BB raises to $25.

flush draw, set, middle pp, AQ/AJ, A9, maybe 97 or 98? would've raised JJ or QQ pf, but just might've slowplayed AA. don't know what to put him on here, and don't know how to find out. A re-raise could get me to the point of no return, but folding KK here seems terrible. With the clock ticking my inner passivity comes out and I just call, wondering what'll happen on the turn.

(~$58) Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks. I check.
Is this a bad check? he could've hit the nut hearts and is slowplaying... or the card could mean nothing and he wants to see if I show strength, or has the Ah and wants a card. But for me to bet even 3/4 pot I'm basically committing my whole stack.

river 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he immediately puts me all-in (~$85). Now in addition to the hearts he could've hit trips or even completed a boat. Then again if he had a monster, would he really go all-in here? maybe he smelled weakness and could tell I won't go to the felt so he's pushing a mediocre hand.

I've learned to fold to huge bets when the action is confusing and I'm nowhere near the nuts, so I decide to cut my losses - fully aware I mightve just been bullied by someone with TT or A9 or some other garbage.

frustrating - I had position and a big overpair, and still somehow ended up playing defense the whole hand. What would others do different? Thanks for any tips.

[VarlosZ]

I think calling his raise on the flop is fine, considering that a reraise (along with your PFR) would make it obvious you had AA/KK, and (most importantly) you will have position the rest of the hand.

On the turn you must bet behind his check. If he had two pair or a set, he'd have to bet to prevent a one card flush draw from beating him, and also for value. Likewise, you have to protect against a one-card flush draw. If he has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], that's just a tough break.

You have $83 and there's $58 in the pot -- I'd bet about half my stack. This pot commits you, but is preferable to a push because it gives a draw a chance to make a mistake, and is less likely to push out a lower PP.

[amoeba]

I don't put villain on AA or a heart draw. I think he is on 2 pair or set.

Many new players often slowdown when the slow card comes and I think thats what he did on the turn.

I believe hero is behind on the turn and if he thinks he can push villain off his hand with a sizable bet, then by all means do it. If you don't think you can push him off, then check behind and fold the river like you did.

[jbright]

thanks for the replies.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe hero is behind on the turn and if he thinks he can push villain off his hand with a sizable bet, then by all means do it. If you don't think you can push him off, then check behind and fold the river like you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah my gut was that I was probably behind... and that if he had a set he wouldn't fold to my turn bet on the scare card (nor should he, esp. if one of his set cards was a heart). Plus there was still a chance he actually had the nut hearts, then my stack is gone.

So I felt I should just check behind, then call a small/moderate bet on the river or fold to a big one. So that's what I did... feeling all the while like I was being a bit weak.

Varloz, you think on this turn card with my pair of kings and no outs I should be thinking in terms of going to the felt with this guy? I almost did... it just seemed like it could be a very costly mistake.

[zaxx19]

He had a set and mistakingly-weakly didnt bet the turn IMHO...Once he complete for a boat he thought he might get a crying call from a flush or just a call born of suspicion-and or strange betting.

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Varloz, you think on this turn card with my pair of kings and no outs I should be thinking in terms of going to the felt with this guy? I almost did... it just seemed like it could be a very costly mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but it's a judgement call that relies on the opponent. If he's been throwing chips around, then I'd go with it.

A set or two pair shouldn't act scared of the flush in this instance, but they should be scared about an Ace or King-high flush draw. QQ-TT would be consistent with his play so far; your calling his flop raise says that you don't have just overcards, so it'd make much more sense for those hands to slow down on the turn than two pair or better. A tricky flush-draw is also a possibility, but isn't it at least as likely that a check on the turn indicates weakness?

His river push suggests that I could be wrong in this case, of course, but if you had the flush you almost certainly would have bet at least something on the turn, and an aggressive opponent can push on the river with any two cards.

[NiceCatch]

Ugh... I don't like the way this hand turned out, mostly because of your opponent. Sounds very tricky. What types of preflop raises was he calling earlier, and with what? Was he making solid calls? He's out of position here... so either he has a monster preflop, a really nice drawing hand (like AKs), or believes he can outplay you after the flop.

My rule of thumb is, if you don't want to get stuck with a tricky decision after the flop, raise up the flop so that only a good, second best hand will call you. Maybe 6xBB in this case? After all, the villain is already in for the BB, so it costs him 3xBB.

On the flop... there aren't too many flops that are better for KK than what fell. If he has a set, you're screwed. So why call the $15 raise? That call pretty much told him you have a big pair. At this point, any variety of scare cards will allow him to buy the pot, especially if he feels that you are good enough to fold a big pair. So you either move in on him, or you fold. A call against a tricky player puts you in too weak a position. What if the scare cards DIDN'T come on the turn and river? Do you call him down?

My play: Preflop raise to 5-7xBB. Flop, raise to $15-$20. If he's going to re-raise you, it can't be cheap. If he reraises you at this point, you fold.

-NC

[fathertime]

I like Var's analysis.

On the flop you need to put him on his most likely holding.

1. Your raise says you don't have overs.
2. Unless he is totally erratic, his reraise says
a I don't believe you
b I have a pair in the hole
c I can beat one pair
d. I've got a draw
3. Proceed according to what you think he has and what you think he thinks you have. I'm inclined to put him on a, b, or d more than c; but only because folks tend to call flop raises with sets and top 2 rather than reraise with them. This particular player may not be typical.

[NiceCatch]

BTW, all that being said, nice fold on the river. A tough one for many, good job. Whether he had you beat or not, it was the right decision.

-NC

[NiceCatch]

Nice analysis, fathertime... That re-raise really is curious. I would think a set simply calls. Two-pair would reraise, a flush-draw from a good player would re-raise. But I would think the flush draw would re-raise only with position, so as to buy a free card on the turn (that's what I would do). I don't think TT reraises, and certainly TT/JJ/QQ re-raises are not consistent with his all-in on the river (what hands could you have on the river that those hands beat? Only AKo. And the call of the re-raise pretty much says you have a big pair.)

So I definitely think he has you beat. Two pair that filled up, and less likely, a flush. Once again, I really think you lay down the KK to the flop re-raise. At this point you assume he has you beat, and at best you need the board to pair without a heart hitting. And even then, probably only a 4 would help you, since he could have 97. That gives you at most five outs if you're beat at the flop.

I think if you had overbet a fair amount with your raise (say 1.5x the pot), you could have been more sure of his hand.