Screw collusion...THIS is the problem online....

[lefty rosen]

Poker tracker is so bad for online poker it's not even funny. All I know is that the Party games are slowly becoming Paradise Poker games before the poker boom. If you want to play in rock gardens above .5/1 at Party go ahead because I don't........ [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[PoorLawyer]

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Sorry this is so long, but I really feel that the original poster and the people arguing along his line of reasoning are incorrect, and I want to point out where and why.

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How is the information getting on to the Party screen? I'm sure "none" of party's code was used/modified to make that happen.

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You are correct. Information is processed by PokerTracker, then that processed data is overlayed onto the poker table by a separate application. It does not use the poker software in any real way.

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All in all, it's fairly ammusing watching you people defend something that you could obviously not make a dime without.

So many "Internet Pro's"

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This isn't even an argument, it's just an insult. What's worse, it has no factual basis.

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no it isnt. If "everyone else" was using it then I don't think it is such a big deal. The fact is though that only a very small fraction of people know it even exists/know that people are using their past play against them.

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I do not see a difference between using someone's past play against them via the use of numerical statistics and doing it via note-taking and memory. Either way, I am using someone's past play against them without their knowledge, and by your logic, I am being unfair.

Secondly, not knowing that it exists has no bearing on the discussion. It is freely available to everyone with an internet connection. It is talked about at just about every poker website and forum, and it is simple to use. How does other players' knowledge factor into the equation? You have expressed disdain for the comparison of PT and books in this thread, but that comparison is used because it successfully refutes this exact argument. Very few people know that the math has been done and that there is generally a "correct" way to play poker. This information is contained in books that only some people know about and even fewer people read. Applying your line of reasoning, reading poker books is not fair.

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So many narrow minds, but of course, nobody expected less.

It's not about technology, it's not about memory, it's not about multi-tabling.

It IS about a level playing field.

If this is so "fair", why is it not biult in to the poker software?

Name ONE online poker site that *provides* this information as part of their program.

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Your contention that everyone in favor of such software is "narrow-minded" is merely another ad hom that lacks any basis in reality.

Your argument about a "level playing field" is appealing to one's sense of justice and fairness, but makes little sense. The fundamental nature of the game provides a level playing field, and this fact is not changed at all by third party software. There are still fifty-two cards in the deck, there are still only four aces, and you still don't know what anyone else holds. The playing field is by definition level. Your argument is akin to a golfer complaining that the playing field is not level because his opponent is using brand new Nike clubs while he chooses to use equipment from the 1930s.

Your final argument is fallacious, you are begging the question. Just because poker software does not integrate these features into their software does not make third party software doing just that "unfair." As I have argued above, the playing field provided by the site is inherently fair, using statistical software is merely one way to play (fairly) on that level field.

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But, I would still have a problem with the information being 'overlayed' onto the poker window, under the cooresponding name.

It is not a crime to have the information, but to modify or alter the poker window in ANY way shape or form is a problem for me.

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Why is overlaying the information unfair in and of itself? If you acknowledge that having the information is fair, how can making that information easier to digest be unfair?

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It is completely different to learn how to play a game through books and discussion than it is to take information that would not be usable the way pokertracker makes it and to buy a program to filter thousands of hands and give you real-time information on your opponents.

I said this in another thread a couple weeks ago, but what do you think the reaction of all the fishies would be if party put out a mass email telling them that people are using this program against them without their knowledge.

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First of all, the information provided by PokerTracker is not real-time information. It is 100% historical and gives no prediction or information about either (a) Your opponent's hands or (b) how they are playing their current hand. Information about the current hand is not imported or displayed until after it is over. Secondly, merely having these statistics does nothing to give you an advantage or improve your play. You need to be good at several other things, among them: understanding the statistics, watching your opponent's overall style of play, knowing how often your opponent tries to be deceptive with her play, etc.

Finally, I wouldn't give two shits if Party told everyone about PokerTracker. It does not make you a better player, all it does is make you a more informed player. I would relish having 50k people having PT and still not knowing what they were doing.

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it has nothing to do with making the fish's game better. It has to do with you knowing how bad they are and their tendancies when they don't know yours. If they knew yours and ignored it, then so be it.
Yes, the info can be used by anyone. But do they know that info even exists on their hard drive? If they did, do they know that PT exists? If they did, should they be forced to shell out for it just to keep pace? (you do have to pay for the software right?) If they got it and saw how bad their play is, would they keep playing? stop playing? learn how not to play fishy anymore?
The ones that know about it and keep playing deserve to be eaten alive, but as to everyone else they are put at an unknowing and unfair disadvantage that goes beyone their poor play.

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To begin, I still don't understand how this is any different than physical or mental note-taking. You are processing data about how your opponents play. The accuracy of that data depends on multiple factors, none of which are provided by either PT or your Pen and Paper.

Moreover, my opponents not knowing my tendencies is not my fault. They can know my tendencies without PokerTracker and PlayerView, and if they don't, it's not something THAT GOES BEYOND their "bad play," it is an INHERENT QUALITY OF their "bad play."

Why does it matter if all of my opponents know about PT and PV? Should I only take advantage of the things my opponents also know about? If they don't understand what a check-raise is, should I enlighten them before I do it? Of course not. You will argue that this example is not a good analogy, but it most certainly is. I cannot will that my opponents know everything they can do to make their game better. I would have zero incentive to will such a thing even if I could.

Finally, you continue to assume (or at least imply) that PokerTracker makes someone using it a better poker player ("...just to keep pace.") I will repeat again for emphasis that PokerTracker does nothing to make you a better player. Using computer analysis and motion sensors to analyze your golf swing does not make you a better golfer. Going to the weightroom does not make you a better football player. WHAT YOU DO with these tools makes you better. These tools are not always used by all people in these games, and that fact does not make any of these tools "unfair."

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A poker book gives you information on the macro level (what hands you should play, when in general to raise/fold, figuring out odds, etc.). That is entirely different from a program that tells you on a micro level about how an individual person usually plays a hand, etc.

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You are confused about the levels of information given by the book and the software, and this is the reason you can't understand the comparison between the two. The book gives you macro-level information about THE GAME OF POKER, the software gives you macro-level information ABOUT THE PLAYERS. They BOTH give you macro-level information. Micro-level information about the player would involve specific information about what they are doing right now and why. PokerTracker cannot give you this information, that would be cheating. Information about what someone "usually" does can not only be gleaned using "traditional" poker skills, but it is positive information, not normative. That is, it does not tell you what to do or what the correct play is, it just gives you facts. The fact that a player "usually" raises with TPTK does not mean she will not raise with an OESD or a pair of sevens with an ace kicker. In this sense, PT only gives you framework information.

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the bottom line is that you can know facts about a player's tendancies from the first hand you play, while someone who doesnt use it cant. Poker is played based on incomplete information, and you clearly have more information that someone not using PT. No amount of notes on a player can equal having all of those stats against someone that you may not have played against in 3 months. You cannot honestly contend that someone can put hand histories into a usable form to use against a particular player without using some sort or software like PT. Using this info subverts having to use your memory, it is not the same as using it.
Further, the software gives you macro information about the players only if you look at an average of how all players play aggregately. If you are looking at an individual player's stats, that would be at the micro level.

[PoorLawyer]

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Online poker and B&M poker are not the same game. They are similar, but have slightly different rules. You can see mucked hands that called on the river (on any site via hand histories btw), you can multitable, and you can use software like PT. Online sites obviously don't try to emulate B&M because they provide mucked hand info, allow multiple tables open and work with Pat on PT.

Because of this, they require different skill sets. Not everyone can 4, 6, 8 table, or process all the info that PV provides on the screen and that's because it is a skill. I for one can't pick up any reads live. I don't have that skill (or at least haven't bothered to work on it). If you want to argue about which game is harder, go for it, but I don't think there are very many people who are good enough at both to speak intelligently on the topic.

It's not the same game, and if you don't like the online game, don't play it. If you want to create a site or lobby a site to emulate B&M poker, go for it (Pacific is probably the closest). I for one don't like B&M play and I don't play there. It's just that simple.

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you can ask to see a losing hand on the river in a B&M if they bet. The point is to prevent collusion. This reasoning has been twisted by use of PT software.

[mrjim]

I realize you can ask, but it isn't reasonable to do so every time you would like. However, it is online. Also, if the sites only wanted you to know by asking, they could force you to request it specifically. They don't.

What about the other points?

[dana33]

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Justify it any way you want, the bottom line is that it is information that you were either a) too lazy to gather, or b) too stupid to gather.

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Yes, I agree. And what really gets me too are those idiots with player notebooks who are just too stupid or too lazy to compute in their heads and memorize the stats for all their opponents. I also dislike those people who buy their own tools because they are too lazy or too stupid to make them out of flint themselves.

[ctj]

My opinion, FWIW:

I have no problem with people using PT to collate data on hands that occurred at their own table.

I do have a problem with using PT as a 'statistics bot' to record hands at other tables.

I have an even bigger problem with people sharing PT data, and an even bigger problem with people buying/selling PT data. (I have no idea if there is such a market, but it wouldn't suprise me). This feels like collusion to me, albeit not 'at the table' collusion.

These practices seem to me to lead to a wasteful (and ultimately harmful to the game) 'arms race' of more and more stat-bots and data-sharing combines leading to more and more countermeasures (changing of screen names, switching sites, playing under someone else's screen name.

[lorinda]

PT and PlayerView are not. End of discussion.

This thread is completely worthless.


In 900+ posts this is the first time I've disagreed with you.

You sign the T+C to say you won't use an external program, so it's cheating.

However whether it is prudent to use something in self-defence because many other people are using it is a totally different matter, and I would agree that it's stupid to deliberately handicap yourself

Information sent to an outside program is not permitted

You are sending their information to an outside program.

Lori

[lorinda]

I didn't bother to read the whole thread but I just wanted to point out that I understand Party changed its method of storing hand histories to make it easier for PT to mine the information. The PT people told me this when I got their opinion about the acceptability of their software with respect to the Party T&C.

Thanks.

Maybe they should clear this up for everyone, it's far from clear.

I'm in the 'give it to everyone' camp and even before this thread have started work on methods to prevent programs from tracking my play successfully.

Lori

[lorinda]

La Brujita cleared this up for me, see above post.

Lori

[SlantNGo]

I agree... I dislike datamining and I hate the idea of people swapping DBs.