Muck $20/40: Come to Daddy on an Inside Straight

bobbyi · #1 02-07-2005, 03:51 AM

Saturday night Muckelshoot $20/40. Same game from which slavic posted a hand, although he folded preflop on this one and I folded preflop on his hand.

Preflop: A player in MP limps. He is fairly loose and plays reasonably straightforwardly, although can sometimes bluff and the like. CO limps. He's an Asian kid I used to play with at the Hideaway. Given that, his play is surprisingly mellow and conservative. I raise on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The big blind calls. He is another somewhat loosish reasonably straightforward player who occassionally some good aggression when he suspect an opponent is weak. Both limpers call.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Check round.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB bets, MP calls and CO raises. I stop to think. Not noticing that I haven't acted, BB mucks and MP calls.

What's my plan for the rest of the hand? (I point out that I haven't acted and get to make my turn action now.)

Fianchetto · #2 02-07-2005, 02:04 PM

Maybe I've been playing too much online lately, but my first instinct is to 3-bet this.

BB is going away no matter what so don't worry about that.

MP calling out of turn makes me think he could be on draw, so we would like to charge him the max.

The CO is the one that concerns me. Since you showed weakness on the flop it's hard to tell where he is at now. KJ, KT are possible limping hands for him that could come to life here, but so is the suited ace. How "mellow and conservative" is he; would he raise with less than a flush here? I guess that is the question, because this seems to be pretty player dependent. I play live with some players that are passive enough that the raise would mean exactly a flush.

Anyway, if he has anything other than a flush, i.e. two pair, a set, or a straight then you should 3-bet. And hey, if everybody mucks when you 3-bet that wouldn't be terrible either since there is probably at least one spade out there drawing live against you.

Now, getting 4-bet sucks, but in a live setting I will usually have some read on their play and especially with a conservative player I could release it confident that they have me drawing dead.

Basically, I think if he is capable of raising the turn with less than a flush then you should 3-bet it. If he is really passive, you should just call or even muck it although that would be hard for me to do without a solid read on the player.

anatta · #3 02-07-2005, 02:16 PM

Well you got some chance of losin' this time. I'd call it down. Edit...I have folded here to some players who almost have to have the flush for their turn raise, so if folding feels right, I'd do that too, epecially since the flop got checked around and the pot isn't that big. There are a lot of two pairs or a lower str8 that guys could have but maybe not him.

foobar · #4 02-07-2005, 02:49 PM

If I had a gun for everytime I check/call this down, I could arm a town the size of Abilene.

From the post, it doesn't look like you're sure where you stand on the turn, and I don't think that re-popping it defines the hand any better. As such, I probably just try to get to showdown cheaply.

anatta · #5 02-07-2005, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, I think if he is capable of raising the turn with less than a flush then you should 3-bet it. If he is really passive, you should just call or even muck it although that would be hard for me to do without a solid read on the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read this and I like the three-bet. So there you have it, I think you should 3-bet, call, or fold. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Alexthegreat · #6 02-07-2005, 06:15 PM

I think you should have bet the flop....You probably could have avoided this tough situation if you had bet....As you stand right now, I'm not sure what I would do, although I think 3-betting and checking behind to any river could be a good play...It looks like the CO could have limped with a suited connector and does have a small flush, and if he is conservative he may just call it down if you 3-bet him....

bobbyi · #7 02-07-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should have bet the flop....You probably could have avoided this tough situation if you had bet....

[/ QUOTE ]
I used to automatically bet any flop as a preflop raiser unless I had a ton of opponents, and almost always bet the turn if no one raised on the flop and I only had a couple opponents. That worked really well in the 10/20. In the 20/40, one of the ways that the opponents are tougher is that they check-raise a lot more. The players in this game are often pretty loose, which means that a flop bet doesn't pick up the pot agaisnt this many opponents nearly as often as I would like. I thought that with this board and these opponents, there was little chance I was going to take it down right here, and the chance that a flop bet would lead to me succesfully taking it down on the turn was too small to bet for that reason. A bet on the flop doesn't result in my getting free card on the turn nearly as often as I would like either.

If I get check-raised on this flop, I'm very unhappy. My gutshot might be clean. An ace might win it for me. But the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] are clearly heavily tainted as outs and even if I hit a clean jack or ace on the turn, a spade is going to come on the river a fifth of the time. I could be drawing dead. For these reasons, I don't want to call a check-raise here, but it would suck to bet and then have to fold since the turn card could potentially give me the best hand and then I've cost myself the pot by betting. This felt like a good time to check with outs. When I saw the turn, I was glad I did because I could easily have the best hand now and I probably wouldn't have been able to get that far if I had bet the flop. I've been trying to learn to recognize the times I need to check behind on the flop or turn rather than auto-betting when checked to like I used to, since I'm know playing in a game where people love to exploit that strategy. This felt to me like a really good time to take a free card and hope for some help. I think I would have avoided a tough situation only in the the sense that my cards would have been in the muck.

slavic · #8 02-07-2005, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should have bet the flop....You probably could have avoided this tough situation if you had bet....As you stand right now, I'm not sure what I would do, although I think 3-betting and checking behind to any river could be a good play...It looks like the CO could have limped with a suited connector and does have a small flush, and if he is conservative he may just call it down if you 3-bet him....

[/ QUOTE ]

4 handed, wiffing on the flop, scary board, but any decent spade will call. (among this group) I don't have a problem being done with the hand on the flop.

The turn certainly puts you to the test though.

Lmn55d · #9 02-07-2005, 07:31 PM

nm

TStoneMBD · #10 02-07-2005, 07:38 PM

dont bet this flop, youre just giving money away. on the turn, i believe 3betting is superior to calling. you have to protect against flush draws, and someone may easily fold the Qs here in fear that you slowplayed an Ahigh flush. The raiser on the turn could easily be protecting his 2pair hand. If you are 4bet on the turn, you fold against certain opponents.