How the little fish ran over the whole table...(why do big MTTs????)

boondockst · #1 02-06-2005, 07:16 AM

Labor my *ss off for 3 hours to get from 640 to top 90 in a surprisingly tight tournament and then this little fishy runs over the whole table....How do you guys even bother playing large tournaments? I have to assume crap like this is routine.....

My demise:

I correctly figured that since he didn't raise he couldn't have AJ AQ or AK....

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 (t6615)
CO (t21396)
Button (t6485)
SB (t2245)
BB (t5520)
Hero (t6953)
UTG+1 (t10644)
MP1 (t29262)
MP2 (t3035)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t800, 4 folds, CO calls t800, 3 folds.

Flop: (t2200) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t1500, CO calls t1500.

Turn: (t5200) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls [t4653] , CO calls t4653.

River: (t9853) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t9853

Hero has Ad Th (one pair, aces).
CO has 2d Ah (straight, six high).
Outcome: CO wins t9853.

Try another (why do all the morons like 93 suited?)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t6615)
Button (t17940)
SB (t6685)
BB (t2645)
UTG (t5520)
Hero (t6953)
UTG+2 (t2856)
MP1 (t10644)
MP2 (t29262)
MP3 (t3035)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to t800, 4 folds, Button calls t800, 2 folds.

Flop: (t2200) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t2200) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets t1000, Button raises to t4600, UTG+2 calls [t1056] t1000.

River: (t7800) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t7800

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has As Td (three of a kind, aces).
Button has 3c 9c (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins t7800.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t7615)
UTG (t10263)
UTG+1 (t4615)
MP1 (t1845)
Hero (t7553)
MP3 (t10178)
CO (t12218)
Button (t13786)
SB (t2191)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t600, 1 fold, MP1 calls [t1845] , 6 folds, UTG calls t1245.

Flop: (t2295) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t2295) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t2295) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t2295

Results in white below:
UTG has Ac Jc (straight, jack high).
MP1 has Kc Ah (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins t2295.

Is calling an all in with A9o +EV???????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t7165)
Button (t12108)
SB (t7685)
BB (t4615)
Hero (t7553)
UTG+1 (t11618)
MP1 (t25464)
MP2 (t2041)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls [t2041] , 1 fold, Button calls t2041, 1 fold, BB calls t1741.

Flop: (t4232) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Button bets t3200, BB folds.

Turn: (t7432) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t7432) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t7432

Results in white below:
MP2 has 8c 8s (one pair, eights).
Button has 9h As (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Button wins t7432.

His poor play is trumped by a worse play...and the draw hits...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t9015)
UTG (t15740)
UTG+1 (t7085)
MP1 (t5920)
Hero (t6953)
MP3 (t2856)
CO (t10644)
Button (t28062)
SB (t3235)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t800, 7 folds, BB calls t400.

Flop: (t1800) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t400, UTG calls t400.

Turn: (t2600) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t700, UTG calls t700.

River: (t4000) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t900, UTG calls t900.

Final Pot: t5800

Results in white below:
BB has 5d Jd (high card, jack).
UTG has Jc Qc (straight, queen high).
Outcome: UTG wins t5800.

Not sure why some decide to start donating, but he keeps his luck up:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

 (t6615)
MP1 (t27549)
MP2 (t6485)
CO (t2045)
Button (t11640)
SB (t5524)
BB (t29262)
UTG (t3035)

Preflop: is with , .

Flop: (t600) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (t600) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)
BB bets t2200, MP1 calls t2200.

River: (t5000) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: t5000

Results in white below:
SB doesn't show.
BB doesn't show.
UTG doesn't show.
MP1 has Ah 3d (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP2 doesn't show.
CO has Ks 9s (two pair, sixes and fours).
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: MP1 wins t5000.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

 (t6615)
UTG+1 (t30749)
MP1 (t6485)
MP2 (t2045)
CO (t11640)
Button (t5324)
SB (t26262)
BB (t3035)

Preflop: is with , .

Flop: (t600) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks.

Turn: (t600) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB bets t3200, UTG+1 raises to t11200, SB folds.

Final Pot: t15000

Outcome: UTG+1 shows A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG+1 wins t17200 with a straight, five to nine.

for teh win · #2 02-06-2005, 12:25 PM

Flame away but I think this is a really interesting topic. Personally, I can't read this as a standard bad beat thread. I find myself in situations like these every week in MTTs and SNGs because of the buy-in levels I play on. Although it would be worse to be up against 9 true sharks at a tournament table, it still isn't a trivial problem.

Fish pose a real problem in tourneys, one that cannot simply be dismissed by saying something like "well, they're doing -EV plays so while they might have got lucky this time they will lose in the long run". In the long run we're all dead! They're dragging you down with them in the fall. It's never easy to know when to squeeze them and when to let them have the pot with their 93s. Mix in a couple of decent players among them and it gets even worse. You now have the worst of both worlds sort of.

Nightmare scenario: TT or JJ in early position at a mixed table with loonies and good players, only it's too early to tell who is who.

This can get ugly. Usually does for me. You would like to raise to see where you stand. But chances are you're getting called a few times too many. "Oh, but then you need to raise more!" Put my entire stack at risk on TT at lvl 1?

Let's say AK calls you. Then a loony is getting over 2:1 on his Granny Mae, making J6 even more playable for the next loony behind him. Sure, they are behind but they are starting to drag you with them. Now every overcard to your TT is covered and if you stay in the pot, you're betting at only slightly above even money provided all stick around. Cross your fingers and hope for that elusive 2-outer. If you saw this coming, you might have chosen to just call, but then AK is going to raise (or Q5s might). Now what?

Or let's say you're playing AKs early and at least two players will call you down no matter what, that much you have realised after playing to lvl 2-3. Flop comes out rags (of course). You led out preflop, but now what? These are the kind of players who, if you bet, probably will call, either with or without middle trash pair and gutshot straight. The other option is to give a free card, so you're between a rock and a hard place. If they didn't pair on the flop, there is no way of telling, then you're a huge favorite but you're still going to win a showdown less than half the time. So they are creating a volatility you don't want when you try to shake them out of the pot and they simply won't leave. +EV is one thing. Staying IN the tournament with a healthy stack is, unfortunately, a slightly different thing.

Now add a very common characteristic to these loonies in the AK example - they think it's macho with all-ins because they have watched too much TV. If you raise preflop, they like to retaliate to show you who's got the bigger cojones and, if possible, put you all-in even at early levels. So if you are going to play those AK "properly" at all, you have to be prepared to do so to the very bottom of your stack. And since this is a likely scenario every time you pick up a hand like AK, while you may be able to survive one coin flip slightly skewed in your favor, will you survive two or three even before hitting level 6?

These loonies wouldn't be a problem if +EV translated straight into $$. Then you could rest assured Mr Long Run would cover your back. But in tournaments it isn't quite that simple. Then again, against "equals" you wouldn't be better off either. But it's still nice with people who fold occasionally.

So what do you do about these loonies? The only way I can see to reduce volatility and prevent early exits is to go very easy on preflop betting on early rounds and focus on good postflop play with made hands (but then you need to catch cards). Or to try to outbully them (which might backfire sooner or later).

boondockst · #3 02-06-2005, 07:52 PM

So that late in a tourney......i had slightly over an average stack almost to the money....he lucked out to get 4x my stack......how do i play vs. him? Pray to be table-moved????????

Punker · #4 02-06-2005, 09:06 PM

Your goal in these tournaments should be to have most of the money going in later in the hand than earlier, and make good judgments about when to put it in. Early in the hand, you aren't often going to be a huge favorite over anything with hands like TT. By the turn however, you can be a pretty big favorite.

SpeakEasy · #5 02-07-2005, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Mix in a couple of decent players among them and it gets even worse. You now have the worst of both worlds sort of.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is every cash game, SNG and tournament table I have ever played, live or on the internet.

Adapt.

Brad F. · #6 02-07-2005, 04:04 AM

Boondocks, I hear ya. It's tough to know how much credit to give fish.

At a final table on UB, my known fish PleaseFold2Me took all of my stack when he called 3/4 of his stacks with a gutshot. He earlier pushed my A-J out of a hand by reraising all in with K-J on the button, the original raiser had 4-4 and called his all-in.

Anyway, you never know in these tourneys. I fold 10-10 in EP in levels I and II in most tourneys I play in, but sometimes I'll limp. It's too hard to get people out of the hand so you need to play for set value.

Oh, and as bigstack, calling with suited cards is sometimes ok. That much of a gap isn't usually +EV, but when you can afford it I guess.... Most fish aren't used to the big stack and get giddy as it is.

Anyway, good post, but I agree, lots of fishies make for tough play.

Brad

boondockst · #7 02-07-2005, 07:32 AM

So just put up with the beats? Every time i have this crap happen (usually in bunches) i can't get over it for an hour or so....short of getting a book on zen or a "waterfall sounds" mix tape, how can you avoid this? Nut peddle when everyone's wary of the bubble??? This guy would have beaten my AK, AA, 22, you name it......????? How can the Daniel Negreanus make final tables as often as they do with crap like this going on? It doens't happen in larger buy-in tournaments????? I know a 20+2 isn't that large but i figured by the time 640 whittled down to 90 the fish were gone......

Absolution · #8 02-07-2005, 10:09 AM

You can't compare what Daniel plays to an online multi. For one he has realistic blind levels most of the time, and for another, he has someone physically sitting across the table that he either knows well or has good read on. There is just so much more time and information available to him (not that it's easy to do what he does, but you can see how someone good can prevail more often). What do we get online? 1000+ players every tournament where you rarely see the same person twice, 10 minute blind levels and small stacks that force you to gamble, and no information other than some quick betting pattern reads. Oh yeah, and he has this thing called fold equity working for him. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] People are probably much less loose with their chips at a live event, especially with thousands of dollars buy ins.

I keep searching for the answer to online multis as well, but I don't think there is one (not that it will stop me from trying to improve). The structure + players make for extremely high variance. We just have to live with it. Oh, and if you want to feel better, watch the first few rounds of last years main event where the pros were dropping out left and right to calling stations. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

boondockst · #9 02-07-2005, 11:16 AM

Yeah...i just get in a bad mood for a bit and my girl kind of gets that "maybe you shouldn't play so much/often" and i can't think of a good reason to give her in reply although i know i'm better than a good portion of these people (am actually capable of laying down AQ and back in my UB days, KK (not ever on Party, sorry))

woodguy · #10 02-07-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fish pose a real problem in tourneys, one that cannot simply be dismissed by saying something like "well, they're doing -EV plays so while they might have got lucky this time they will lose in the long run"

[/ QUOTE ]

*shudder*