Do the "Odds with 2 Cards To Come" Have Any Usefulness?

[TomBrooks]

I've read that the odds with two cards to come don't have much significance because you have another round of betting before the second card. Therefore, you have to calculate in an estimate of what the cost of those bets will be, or just forgo using this calculation at all.

Do the odds with two cards to come have any significant purpose besides perhaps being nice to know?

-TomBk

[jackfrost]

One great example is when you are on a flush draw against many opponents. The pot is laying you better than 1:2 at that point so every extra flop raise you get is profit.

[jackfrost]

I play mostly limit but i'm guessing in NL there are many more situations where this number is important.

[binions]

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One great example is when you are on a flush draw against many opponents. The pot is laying you better than 1:2 at that point so every extra flop raise you get is profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify, if there are 4 people putting money in on the flop besides you, then you are contributing 20% that round.

If your hand has a 35% chance to hit by the river (ie 9 out flush draw with 2 cards to come), then you should raise.

You will win (35%) more than your share (20%).

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read that the odds with two cards to come don't have much significance because you have another round of betting before the second card. Therefore, you have to calculate in an estimate of what the cost of those bets will be, or just forgo using this calculation at all.

Do the odds with two cards to come have any significant purpose besides perhaps being nice to know?

-TomBk

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...there's this game they play on TV called "no limit"...something about the cadillac of poker..i don't really know.

[Cerril]

Mostly you would be looking at the odds with two cards to come when you know you're seeing the river. The example of a flush draw against several opponents is a good one. Even if you aren't getting odds based on just the next card (important when looking at hands with fewer outs, where your equity and pot odds are good now but won't be on the turn - i.e. you'll be folding the turn if you don't improve).

Essentially your odds with two to come matter for the sake of equity more than odds, since those cases are the ones where you want to get more bets in rather than just calling or checking.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read that the odds with two cards to come don't have much significance because you have another round of betting before the second card.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't always have another round of betting. For example, you may be put all in on the flop. In that case, you won't do any more betting on the turn, and you should use the two-cards-to-come odds.

But in general, if you want to use the two-cards-to-come odds, you have to use the two-cards-to-come price -- which will usually (in fixed-limit) be a small bet on the flop plus a big bet on the turn. You will never convert a fold into a call this way, though, since the bet size increases from the flop to the turn more than your chances of making your hand do, so you should generally just do your pot odds calculations based on seeing only the next card, not two more.

That's for deciding whether to fold or call.

When deciding whether to call or raise, as others have mentioned, go ahead and use the two-cards-to-come number. (But don't compare it to the size of the whole pot; just compare it to the money going in on the current round.)

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
But in general, if you want to use the two-cards-to-come odds, you have to use the two-cards-to-come price -- which will usually (in fixed-limit) be a small bet on the flop plus a big bet on the turn. You will never convert a fold into a call this way, though, since the bet size increases from the flop to the turn more than your chances of making your hand do

[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't necessarily true at all. If you are heads up and your opponent bets the flop and you estimate there is a 10% chance he will also bet the turn, you may not be getting good enough odds to pay one small bet to see one card, but may be getting good enough odds to pay 1.2 small bets (1 on the flop plus 10% of a big bet on the turn) to see two cards. Even though you would fold the flop if you only considered your immediate odds and chance of hitting on one card, you should call since your odds on two cards justify the (expected) price of seeing two cards. So you call and hope that either you help on the turn or he checks.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are heads up and your opponent bets the flop and you estimate there is a 10% chance he will also bet the turn, you may not be getting good enough odds to pay one small bet to see one card, but may be getting good enough odds to pay 1.2 small bets (1 on the flop plus 10% of a big bet on the turn) to see two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is correct. The point is that you have to include the cost of both rounds of betting. If you really think your opponent has only a 10% chance of betting the turn, then the turn looks pretty cheap. I don't think that's going to be a reasonable assumption very often, but if your opponent is that weak-passive, then calling on the flop to get two cards may be correct even if calling on the flop to get one cards wouldn't have been.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One great example is when you are on a flush draw against many opponents. The pot is laying you better than 1:2 at that point so every extra flop raise you get is profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify, if there are 4 people putting money in on the flop besides you, then you are contributing 20% that round.

If your hand has a 35% chance to hit by the river (ie 9 out flush draw with 2 cards to come), then you should raise.

You will win (35%) more than your share (20%).

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an example of the application of pot equity. i think what the OP was asking about was the usefulness of pot odds on the flop...if this is the case, then implied odds are your pot odds adjusted in consideration to the pot you stand to win if you hit your card. for more info see sklansky's Theory of Poker.