Limit 40-80 O8 Shorthanded question

[obi---one]

Great Limit 40-80 Omaha eight or better game. We are currnetly three handed and I feel I am in a great spot. This hand was a couple of days ago so I don't remember all my cards but remember the important ones.

My hand important cards k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Three to the flop of j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

!st position bets out. My thoughts are, great I have flush straight draws, and unlikely low. I may scoop. Guy in 1st position is calling station. I can't run him off his hand so I need to make something I call. Third player calls.

Turn q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Nice card, I now have the nuts with redraw, with no low possible. The kind of hands you dream for in o8. Now, 1st position checks. I bet. I get raised by 3rd position, I, of course reraise, with my redraw and current nut. 3rd position knows how to play cards. I know he has top set or same hand. River is king. So Final board is k [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check and he fires. I don't like it because he could have limped in with ak10 something and he has redrawen for nut straight. In fact, that is exactly what I think he has. Do I have to call him down on the end?

[Nick709]

[ QUOTE ]
Great Limit 40-80 Omaha eight or better game. We are currnetly three handed and I feel I am in a great spot. This hand was a couple of days ago so I don't remember all my cards but remember the important ones.

My hand important cards k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Three to the flop of j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

!st position bets out. My thoughts are, great I have flush straight draws, and unlikely low. I may scoop. Guy in 1st position is calling station. I can't run him off his hand so I need to make something I call. Third player calls.

Turn q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Nice card, I now have the nuts with redraw, with no low possible. The kind of hands you dream for in o8. Now, 1st position checks. I bet. I get raised by 3rd position, I, of course reraise, with my redraw and current nut. 3rd position knows how to play cards. I know he has top set or same hand. River is king. So Final board is k [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check and he fires. I don't like it because he could have limped in with ak10 something and he has redrawen for nut straight. In fact, that is exactly what I think he has. Do I have to call him down on the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think you do but you are probably chopping, I think he is showing you a K high strait much more often than the nuts. I.E. QQJT or QJJT.

That reminds me of a horrid 10/20 hand I played. I had AKKQds in LP and cold called a UTG raise after four cold callers, flop comes KJT with two of my ace suit. It's capped all the way through and it comes runner runner flush cards(the ones I don't have) down to heads up at the river and villain bets, do I have to pay off considering such a huge pot? It was one of those crying calls where I was really crying.

[DanS]

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I check and he fires. I don't like it because he could have limped in with ak10 something and he has redrawen for nut straight. In fact, that is exactly what I think he has. Do I have to call him down on the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you should mumble something about 'nice wrap' under your breath, grumble, tap your cards to the felt, and bullet fold.

Are you kidding me? Check-call, and expect to lose.

Dan

[JRegs]

I can't honestly say that I've ever played 40-80 shorthanded O/8.

Having said that, I would probably fold. What is he betting here? He's a solid player, so he's probably not betting the king-high straight. He probably also knows you're gonna call on the river. Given the description of the hand, I don't think he's bluffing.

[Buzz]

Obi - Although I agree your opponent probably at least has a king high straight, there's a vague chance he has a set of queens or jacks instead.

Or he could easily have a king high straight and also three jacks or queens.

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I, of course reraise

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I don't know why.

When you re-raise, your opponent should feel reasonably certain you have the king high straight.

And your opponent has position on you. If you check after a scare card appears on the river, your opponent is very likely to bet.

If I counted correctly, you're getting 10 to 1 whole pot odds for the call. Assuming your opponent has the same straight as you, you're getting 4.5 to 1 half pot odds to call.

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Do I have to call him down on the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely! Thanks to your re-raise on the third betting round and subsequent check on the fourth betting round, everybody at the table knows you have a king high straight and presumes you don't have an ace-high straight. You're a prime target for a bluff here.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[obi---one]

Any way,
I lost he showed the ak10 something for the nuts. I "knew" I was beat but had to pay him off anyways. Someone was saying I should not reraise the turn, that doesn't make any sense to me. I hope that can be explained to me again.

[Cornell Fiji]

you were correct in raising the turn.

you were correct in calling the river even though you knew what he had. something that you might have considered doing is betting out on the river and folding to a raise. only do this if you think that:
the odds of villain folding a straight is twice as likely as the odds of him bluff raising you on the end.

IMO there is no way that you would get raised on the river by anything other than AT. With all of your action so far there is no way that the villain should think that you will fold to his raise and therefore he will seldom if ever bluff-raise you on the end here.

I think that the best river play for this hand might actually be to bet out and fold if raised (of course this play can't be used often because then you will start to get bluff-raised on the end thus making this play -EV.)


-Steve

[Buzz]

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Someone was saying I should not reraise the turn, that doesn't make any sense to me. I hope that can be explained to me again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. That was me. I'll try to explain.

You wrote,
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I bet. I get raised by 3rd position, I, of course reraise, with my redraw and current nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

You re-raised because you had the 2nd nut heart redraw and the current nut. (That's what I understand you to be writing).

You wrote,
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3rd position knows how to play cards. I know he has top set or same hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You give him credit for knowing how to play cards. And you suspect he may have the same hand. (There's also the possibility in your mind that he has top set).

Did you give any consideration to your opponent possibly having the same king high straight plus a redraw?

How about the same king high straight plus a re-draw for a Broadway?

How about the same king high straight plus a re-draw for the nut heart re-draw? (which would also would give him a re-draw for a Broadway)

How about the same king high straight plus top set, which might give your opponent a ten-out re-draw to a full house or quads on the river (more outs than you have for your non-nut redraw)?

If you're already tied (by an opponent who has the same king high straight on the turn) then there more ways you can get hurt on the river than you can improve. And if your opponent has the nut heart flush redraw, improving would be a disaster for you.

It's not just the very strong possibility of your opponent having the nut heart flush re-draw... it's also the very strong possibility of your opponent having those other re-draws.

That considered, calling the raise on the turn, rather than re-raising, seems to me the better choice.

Just my opinion.

I hope I've made it clear.

Buzz

[obi---one]

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I think that the best river play for this hand might actually be to bet out and fold if raised (of course this play can't be used often because then you will start to get bluff-raised on the end thus making this play -EV.)


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I like that play. I agree the chances of getting bluff raised off my hand are slim after all that action. I think I'll try that one next time.