Heads up and out of position

[haakee]

Northern California full 80-160 game. Folded to the button who I peg as solid. I've played with him a few times and not seen any major errors from him -- he's capable of intelligent aggression as well as good laydowns. I'm in the SB. The BB is weak-tightish-predictable. Button raises. I 3-bet from the SB with A8o. BB folds. Button 4-bets. I call.

Flop: Q84 rainbow. I check-raise, he 3-bets. I call.

Turn: blank. Check-check.

River: blank. Check-check.

How did I do?

[J.A.Sucker]

Bet the river. You can also consider folding this hand preflop, and maybe should be doing so some of the time. Of course, I posted an A8o hand recently, so what the hell?

[haakee]

I am pretty sure this opponent did not remember me, but this session we'd been playing together for about 2-3 hours before this hand, and he'd seen 1 unusual aggro play from me (against someone who warranted it), but mostly straightforward play.

I folding here more often than not preflop. Given who the blinds were I thought he would open with a wide variety of hands here and a 3-bet would likely get me to pick up the pot for one bet on the flop.

Call a river raise when I bet? That was my reason for not betting the river.

[Clarkmeister]

"Call a river raise when I bet? That was my reason for not betting the river. "

That's rarely a good reason to not bet.

You have to bet the river. He'll call with all sorts of hands he'd check through from AK to any pair lower than the 8's, but the ones you want him to check behind, JJ-99 will value bet you once you check again.

[J.A.Sucker]

I would call a river raise without hesitation here. Bet.

[elysium]

hi haakee

the check on the river is no good haakee because you still figure to be in the lead, and can easily call a raise. you are just too clearly in the lead.

on the flop, you needed to map out a strategy that wouldn't have you playing your made hand sub-optimally due to poor position. among the many considerations is whether or not you will bet the river if he checks down the turn. you also need to ask whether or not you will fold on the turn if he betout on the turn after check-raising the flop. your too strong for that. so, the problem with this hand begins at the point of the flop check-raise. when you check-raised the flop, you were not doing so to get more bets into the pot. that was a strategic type check-raise against a solid. the problem is haakee, you check-raised from the gut. you may have known it was strategic, but i don't think you carefully considered how the check-raise on the flop would diminish your ability to collect bets. haakee, i really don't think you knew what you were doing. i think though that that's o.k.. i'm very glad you posted this.

check-raise on the flop no good. these type check-raises against this type opponent will put your hand into check mode, as well as the game. that is sometimes very good for you, and you do well to check-raise against this opponent frequently. the time when not to check-raise, is when you are leading. should you betout? well, you can. in that spot you should be looking to ram and jam the flop, and then check the turn. should you check-raise, and then ram and jam? well no because then you are not so clearly in the lead. the check-raise will only provide you with information that will save you bets when trailing. but if you initiate the action, your opponent will gradually become acclimatized to the action, and you can assume to a much larger extent that, like the pilot who doesn't take notice of his altimeter until he becomes dizzy, your opponent hasn't yet been shaken into reality that he is trailing because he hasn't yet seen you make 2 bets at once. yes, its still the same to call, but that doesn't matter. a check-raise's effectiveness in making your solid opponent more predictable is due not to the fact that he is only facing having to call 1 more bet, it has much more to do with seeing you put in 2 bets at once. you don't like raming and jaming a giant who has been shaken into awareness, you like to ram and jam a giant who might not have had his senses shaken and alerting him that he might need a strong hand to bet as aggressively as he is betting. even a dizzy pilot doesn't stop ascending immediately. there is reason to believe that when you betout and ram and jam heads-up like this, that your opponent is raising on an acceleration curve that is gradually slowing, but still faster than the strength of his hand. when the giant sees you bet 2 in 1 blow, and is awakened to awareness, with the awakening the acceleration curve runs parallel with his hand strength, and now when he raises, he likely has the hand his raise is representing.

you should not check-raise the flop, haakee. your hand is too strong for you to know that you have awakened the giant. the check-raise provides you with information that is harmful to your holding. you don't need to awaken him. you must get the bets in there while you can.

what if he has a strong holding? doesn't the check-raise provide you with useful information? then you could avoid the danger yourself. isn't that correct? he could just as easily have a strong hand that you'd like to avoid. doesn't the check-raise on the flop help you then? no.

why?

you see, if he checks down the turn and river, you have the lead and can easily call in the event that you got raised if you had betout on the turn or river. but of course, you wouldn't know beforehand that he would have checked down your expensive round checks, prior to betting out on the expensive rounds. if, on the other hand, you had something like AJ or AK unimproved, when you check-raise the flop, and he checks down both the turn and river, you might have a call in the event of an expensive round bet by him, but you don't have the lead. this means that if when you check and your opponent checks it down it means that you are in the lead, but if you check-raise and he calls or 3-bets he has the lead, you do not check-raise on the inexpensive round because it will not fold him and it will only succeed in giving him the lead. if you check and he checks it down, but your hand is such that his check-down still doesn't put you in the lead, and you are glad that he checks it down because he wouldn't fold if you bet, then you should check-raise the flop. now his check-down is good for you. so it's not that check-raising the flop might tell you something useful that will allow you to save bets, in this as in many hold em situations, the information you retrieve by betting or shaking, must not be in conflict with information that you have already paid for or gotten for free. in otherwords, if your opponent tells you that he is weak, and you believe him, you don't check-raise him to findout if he is lying. the information that he is strong enough to call or 3-bet after you have bet 2 in 1 blow, is useless information and will effect your lead status. you must take an action that is in comportment with the information you already have.

on the flop, when you look at the board, you opponent tells you that you are stronger than he. and you believe him. if you check and he checks it down, you are in the lead. having him see you bet 2 in 1 blow is no good because it will only help your opponent by putting him more in the lead. if you betout and ram and jam, at the point of the 5-bet, he has the lead. now if you check and he checks it down, if you do have the lead, you got the bets in there. if not, you get a free showdown. if you check the expensive rounds, and he bets, you would know not to show him 2 in 1 blow.

you might want to check-raise to get the fold. then check-call the flop, or betout and back-down to a raise. if you bet the flop, and he calls, you need a good indication from something other than his call that if you check, he will bet. if he calls your turn check-raise, you would need more information before checking the river. before check-calling the flop, you would need a good indication that the turn check-raise has slightly more value due to bets missed on the flop. we don't need to discuss who is leaving the bets on the table if you check-call the flop, and he folds to your turn check-raise. you wouldn't like the fold so much. if you did have indication that he would call the turn check-raise, you would need to be slightly more inclined to call if he 3-bet.

you're too strong to check-raise the flop. you're too weak to slowplay since he would need to be stronger to make slowplaying correct, and your hand can't stand him being stronger than he already is. i think you should betout, ram and jam, then check-call it down. this gives your betout on the river better ev should he check-down the turn. i think it's correct to check on the expensive rounds after check-raising him on the flop. for that reason, however, it wasn't correct to check-raise the flop. it stopped you from getting the bets in there on the expensive rounds, and it reduced the action too much given the strength of your holding.

[SA125]

Basic TOP question. Backtrack. He 4 bets PF and 3 bets the Q high flop. Is that an overcard play? Yes/maybe. Because you 3 bet the flop and he checked behind the turn, he figures you're a 90% lock to bet the river. So do you. You check. Does he smell a pair, or think that's way better than the best hand here?

In limits much higher than I play, I'll probably bet there. Nice, basic post.

[haakee]

Of course MHIG. Afterwards I second-guessed the river check so I figured I'd post it here. I would've grumbled a lot and then called a raise had I bet out and been raised.