Missed draws, fold top pair on river? (O8)

__Q__ · #1 02-02-2005, 03:20 PM

Is this an easy automatic fold on the river. I understand that Top pair isn't worth much, thats why I folded with with no low, but considering he could be on a busted low draw too, and could be trying to pick up the pot, is it worth a call here?

Also, is this hand worth raising with preflop? Is the possibility of flopping tens worth anything, or is that too low of a set?

Thanks a ton for the help.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Omaha/8 (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Buzz · #2 02-02-2005, 08:45 PM

Q - Kind of looks like you have A2XX here, doesn't it? What do you think?

It's a nice starting hand. But you'd should have liked to have gotten a flop with a ten or flush possibilities in addition to the low draw. In other words, you caught just enough of the flop to hang in there.

You have 16 outs for low and not much chance for high. the odds against your connecting for low on the turn are 29 to 16. And note that you're realistically only playing for the low half of the pot. When you do catch your draw, on the turn, you'll often end up getting counterfeited on the river. And when you don't get counterfeited, you'll often get quartered by an opponent.

With just two opponents you don't have favorable fresh money odds to make a bet yourself, but you do have implied pot odds to call a bet. However, I actually prefer betting to checking on the second betting round, even though your chances of getting enough of the pot to risk the gamble look a bit dismal here.

I guess you realize you're out of position and the minute you stop betting someone behind you will almost inevitably bet and then you won't know what they have.

This time the hand didn't work out for you, but another time it will.

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Is this an easy automatic fold on the river.

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Not automatic, but yeah, I think you do fold, even though it's probably bad for your table image.

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I understand that Top pair isn't worth much, thats why I folded with with no low, but considering he could be on a busted low draw too, and could be trying to pick up the pot, is it worth a call here?

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No. I don't think so. Not only do you only have top pair, but a ten kicker is generally poor in this game.

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Also, is this hand worth raising with preflop?

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Opinions differ here. I'd usually just call.

Your other post where you raised before the flop seems to have worked out for you, but I'd usually just call there too.

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Is the possibility of flopping tens worth anything,

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Yes. Absolutely.

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or is that too low of a set?

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Taken alone a flopped set of tens isn't great, but along with a flopped nut flush draw or a flopped nut low draw adds depth. With a flopped set of tens plus the nut low draw, the hand has fine scoop potential.

Buzz

__Q__ · #3 02-02-2005, 10:51 PM

Thanks for taking the time Buzz, I found that helpful.

johnnybeef · #4 02-02-2005, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this an easy automatic fold on the river. I understand that Top pair isn't worth much, thats why I folded with with no low, but considering he could be on a busted low draw too, and could be trying to pick up the pot, is it worth a call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think a call is the worst move, if you truly feel that he is trying to pick up a pot, then a checkraise would work best in this situation as you have been betting the entire way.

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Also, is this hand worth raising with preflop?

[/ QUOTE ] absolutely, although i wouldnt do it in ep.

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Is the possibility of flopping tens worth anything

[/ QUOTE ] absolutely, if you flop top set with this, there is a damn good chance that you will scoop the pot with the nut low as well

Moneyline · #5 02-03-2005, 02:35 AM

Preflop: What do you think of your opponents in the pot? If they're loose and not very good hand readers then this is a great spot to raise IMO. If they're rocks who won't enter the pot without a really strong starting hand then you should be more apt to call. Also, if the players who entered the pot before you are loose, but cagey hand readers I would want to play more passively out of the gate.

Flop: I like the bet. You may get someone with a dry pair of queens to lay down, increasing your chances to scoop, 3/4, or win half the pot.

Turn: Great card. You have 10 scoop outs for sure (and there's also a decent chance you'll scoop with another T or a heart that pairs the board). You also have 12 more outs to the nut low. IMO you have enough outs to warrant value betting, but there is also a possibility that you'll be able to pick up the pot. So I'd bet here.

River: You missed your draws and now a low is possible. You are getting less than 5:1 on your call for half the pot. Unless I knew CO is the type of player to take a stab at the pot here, and I also knew the player behind me was unlikely to call with a better high hand I would fold.

chaos · #6 02-03-2005, 09:39 AM

I would not raise with this hand preflop. It is not that strong and you let everyone know that you have a good hand.

When you check after the Ace comes on the river, players may have an excellent read on your hand as a busted A2 low draw. I would not call with a Pair of Aces - Ten kicker and no low.

Your pocket Tens do add value. How much you will like flopping a set of tens depends on the board. You will like them if the board comes 3 8 T rainbow. Not so much if the board is QJT. You need to be concerned about suited boards, possible straights, and overcards. They do add value just do not get married to your set if they are not the nut and there is a lot of action.