Please help me convince my friend that he's wrong... :) - Page 2

RiverRider · #11 02-02-2005, 04:57 PM

First, I want to thank you all for giving me those answers. I really appreciate it.

In fact in this hand I was the button and my friend was on the BB with KK. He raised 500 more. I had JTo and everyone folded to me. So I decided to call given the fact that I had position and that it would only cost me 500 to see a flop with a pot of 1750. Furthermore, I knew he had a big hand given the fact that he's tight (AA,KK,QQ,AK, ...) so I was almost sure that my two cards were live. He had almost 7K left and I had him covered. So I called and the SB folded.

The flop came 56T rainbow.

He betted 1200.
I called.

Ok, here my call is debatable. But I decided to see the next card and hope for a T or a J to bust him. I was ready to fold with any other turn card.

But a T came on the turn and he betted all-in. So I called and busted him.

He said I played this hand terribly but I thought that he played this hand terribly because he didnt raised enough preflop... When your out of position and theres many limper, I think its really important to raise more than you would usually do, and try to win it right there. I think its bad poker to build a pot preflop out of position by not raising enough. I think you have to raise here at least the actual pot. So thats why I posted here to know if my point was right. Any other comments?

KegNog · #12 02-02-2005, 05:44 PM

Well, I agree with your preflop call to see a flop but I dunno that the flop call was correct, IMO.
You've already pegged him on a big PP, so you're looking to get some kind of flop to break him with yet getting nothing more than a pair out of it (no straight or flush draw). So basically you're calling 1200 to win a 2950 pot (and ~3300 implied that are left in his stack) with ONLY 5 outs.
lets see, that's about 4.2:1 (INCLUDING his all in) on a 10:1 proposition - x2 since u get turn & river.

You can justify it all you want, but you definitely got luckier than most here to hit your out full knowing you were calling to chase 5 outs. I'd equate this call with calling to hit an inside straight draw. IMO, that's not a great call vs a Rock (a player you can bully whenever he doesn't have a hand).

Saying that, I would call if he had another 10K+ sitting there waiting to be collected if I hit on the turn. But 3K just wouldn't be enticing enough for me to make this call.

RiverRider · #13 02-02-2005, 06:05 PM

He had 7.5K to start and I had him covered. On the flop there's 1750 already in the pot. He bet 1200 and still have 5650 left (I dont know how u get to 3300...). So If we agree that he will put his hole stack in the center on this hand, I have implied odds of 1200:8100 thus 1:6.75 . And if im right with my five outs I get odds of 1:8.4 to catch a T or a J on the turn . Thoses odds arent good enough to justify my call and I know it. But when that hand came out I thought maybe I had proprer odds to call but after calculating thems I see I didnt. And also, I had a chance to eliminate a good opponent and that should be taken into consideration .

So, I agree my flop call is debatable and maybe wrong. And I appreciate that you took the time to comment it.

SossMan · #14 02-02-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He had 7.5K to start and I had him covered. On the flop there's 1750 already in the pot. He bet 1200 and still have 5650 left (I dont know how u get to 3300...). So If we agree that he will put his hole stack in the center on this hand, I have implied odds of 1200:8100 thus 1:6.75 . And if im right with my five outs I get odds of 1:8.4 to catch a T or a J on the turn . Thoses odds arent good enough to justify my call and I know it. But when that hand came out I thought maybe I had proprer odds to call but after calculating thems I see I didnt. And also, I had a chance to eliminate a good opponent and that should be taken into consideration .

So, I agree my flop call is debatable and maybe wrong. And I appreciate that you took the time to comment it.

[/ QUOTE ]

your flop call is definitely wrong. you won't get his whole stack 100% of the time. Even if you do, you aren't getting the right price for your 5 outs. The only time it is even close to correct is if he will shut down on the turn and give you a freebie. Even then it's close.

wadea · #15 02-02-2005, 07:55 PM

As tight as your friend is, I'm still not sure this call is as bad as everyone else seems to think (read "less bad" NOT "good"). IMO, your implied odds calculation should also take into account - in Harrington-esque fashion - the possibility that he may be playing AK, which we all know to be dealt more frequently than the pairs. In this case, you're actually ahead by quite a bit after the flop and all he's done is make a continuation bet. So, your pot and implied pot odds are not SO bad and (1) if you're behind, you've still got outs (2) you may be ahead and (3) your tournament life is not at stake here - your opponent's is.

That said, I think because you have him outchipped by so much, a weak arguement could be made that a push may even be in order here. He'll have a hard time calling that for his last chip with just a pair. On the button, you could have stayed in with TT.

Just my two cents,
-w.a.

RiverRider · #16 02-02-2005, 08:23 PM

I thought he may have AK so thats one of the reason why I called his flop bet. But since im loose and he knows it, I couldnt make him fold an overpair by raising all-in on that board. So with the fact that he would only call me if he has me beats, raising the flop wouldnt be a good play here IMO, given our stack sizes...

imported_stealthcow · #17 02-02-2005, 09:26 PM

i'd fold it preflop. if you're loose and knows it he wont lay down an overpair on an undercard board, you're drawing real slim. he'll play his hand fast, and not be too worried about you playing back at him on almost all flops. implied odds to bust a monster just aren't there.

you know you need a hand to win. this isn't the spot. he's out of position and is gonna bet at least 1/2 the pot (he should've gone for a pot sized bet there, too)

and you're telling us that he should've bet 750. if he did, the odds would be 750:1700, and based on how you played the rest of the hand, i think you would've called that too

stealthcow-

freemoney · #18 02-02-2005, 09:45 PM

pushing would be very bad here, he would call very fast with KK, and you woulda got lucky but still a push is a very very bad play

gcoutu · #19 02-02-2005, 09:56 PM

I think you played a bit fishy here. He should have raised more, but you were just setting yourself up to be trapped. You got lucky to hit the T on the turn and if you don't then you are forced to fold or call off a lot of chips on the turn. I don't call hoping to hit 6 outs and they may not be good (he could have easily had JJ). Your friend is right that you misplayed the hand IMO.

The_Bends · #20 02-02-2005, 10:42 PM

I'm going to go with the general concensus. Preflop was fine but if your read was a strong as you suggest then you should not have called on the flop. If however you thought he'd make this move with AK AQ AJs KQs etc then your call has much more validity. Having got lucky it plays itself.