Playing big pairs when the flop has one overcard

digitalis · #1 02-02-2005, 02:14 AM

Hi, this is my first post, so don't be too harsh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I just started playing .02/.04 on stars.

I have some questions about playing QQ-TT when the flop has an overcard. Frequently the flop will leave me torn between continuing with the hand or folding immediately.

Folding seems like the right thing to do, but it also seems weak, especially when my opponents play with anything. I am always left with a nasty feeling when I fold in this situation. Sometimes I would have won the pot, but I am usually beaten by A/K/Q-rag.

So with a multiway pot on the flop versus typical microlimit players, would it be correct to check/fold in this situation? What about heads up?

GrunchCan · #2 02-02-2005, 02:17 AM

Welcome to the forum.

The answer is, "it depends."

You should post some hands. There is no universal advice, except for this: Always folding KK when the board flops a single A is -EV. There is no Always in poker.

NateDog · #3 02-02-2005, 02:20 AM

Welcome to the forums.

We fish in the same kiddie pool at stars. I know what you are saying about the Ace rag 2 pair hands beating your pocket pairs. I play them pretty straightforward on the flop, and will usually 3 bet if given the chance. The turn action is usually what tells me if I should continue. As always though "it depends". Is the table passive? Will someone let you know they have your overpair beat? Will they just call along and turn up a winner at the river? Will you get raised on the turn if you are behind? Reads are very important, and will help you with these decisions. If you don't have pokertracker, download it and try it out. You will be glad you will.

I don't know if this helped, but good luck!

Nate

genya · #4 02-02-2005, 02:25 AM

it depends how many people you are up against. In the .02/.04 games, people tend to be extremely loose, from my experience. If you have anywhere from 4 or more people to the flop, you can expect someone to catch top pair, espec. if someone raised preflop (if you have an overcard like a Q or something). If I'm in early position, I usually just check and watch the betting action. If there is a bet and 1+ call (or raise), its highly likely that my hand is not best. If everyone checks down, I probably have a chance. If I am in late position, i usually bet. If my bet recieves two+ callers than my hand is probably not good. It all depends how many people you have seeing the flop. If its 6-7 or more, even top pair usually isnt good enough to take the pot down in the end.

NateDog · #5 02-02-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
it depends how many people you are up against. In the .02/.04 games, people tend to be extremely loose, from my experience. If you have anywhere from 4 or more people to the flop, you can expect someone to catch top pair, espec. if someone raised preflop (if you have an overcard like a Q or something). If I'm in early position, I usually just check and watch the betting action. If there is a bet and 1+ call (or raise), its highly likely that my hand is not best. If everyone checks down, I probably have a chance. If I am in late position, i usually bet. If my bet recieves two+ callers than my hand is probably not good. It all depends how many people you have seeing the flop. If its 6-7 or more, even top pair usually isnt good enough to take the pot down in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I raised pre-flop from early position, I'm usually leading out and leaving the decision making to the people behind me. If someone has enough of a hand to raise, I'll gladly make it 3 bets if my read tells me that he gets out ahead of his hands. Being the aggressor in early position forces those behind you to evaluate their hand against the strength you are showing in yours.

Late position is easier to play, I feel, with a big pocket pair. As the action unfolds in front of you, you can gauge where you stand, and what you'll need to improve. I'm more likely to get checked to here on the flop, and showing strength here may clean up some of your outs and narrow the field.

Again, all plays depend on several factors . . table texture, player reads, position, etc.

atnels · #6 02-02-2005, 02:37 AM

If I had one piece of advise to give, I would say do not fold for one bet on the flop after showing strength preflop. Say you have JJ and raise a bunch of limpers in late position. If the flop comes A-x-x and a player acting before you bets out, I don't think that there is ever a time not to raise. This leads to lots of good things for you. First off, a reraise gives you information on the opposing hand and you can choose either to call to hunt for your set on the turn (depending on pot size) or fold if you looking at 2-3 BB in the pot at that point. Second, you might buy yourself a free look at the river if the bettor was just taking a stab at the pot thinking that the A might just be a scare card for you.

Anyhow, from one 2+2 newbie to another, welcome to the forum!

digitalis · #7 02-02-2005, 03:33 AM

I do raise for information, and I often do it in this situation. Here is a hand where I was trying to do just that.

I believe BB is loose passive and MP1 is slightly loose passive. Table is loose but for this hand. Even at .02/.04 loose players will often respect my preflop raises.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qd Qh (two pair, queens and threes).
MP1 has 5h As (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: MP1 wins 8.75 BB.

My comments: I don't think there any other way to play this hand. I might have been able to see a cheaper showdown. He probably knows he has a bad kicker and with my preflop raise I might have a bigger ace, so he won't reraise me.