Getting a rakeback or not?

[playersare]

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My confusion is: Couldn't you also set up a rakeback deal on Paradise? Then, while you are playing on Paradise you would be getting both the reload bonus and your rakeback, rather than just the rakeback that you would get if you wer playing your Party skin. Does that not work? What I don't understand is why you ever have to trade away your rakeback for something else. Is it because rakeback is not possible for all sites? Is it because they won't let you get both affiliate bonuses and reload bonuses at the same time? Something else? Thanks.

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well first thing, Paradise Poker does not have an affiliate/rakeback program. but let's say it did. the Paradise bonus is worth 10 cents per raked hand (25c minimum). so basically any hand over $5 which sees a flop will count. if 10 players are at the table, then each player's minimum share of the rake revenue is 2.5 cents. using a typical rakeback royalty percentage of 25%, a player representing 2.5 cents of rake revenue would then be entitled to refund of 0.625 cents ($0.00625). however, by receiving 10 cents directly from Paradise Poker for the same action, the bonus then has the same value as a 400% rakeback, or 16 times more value than an affiliate deal.

so let's compare which the possible rakeback earnings might be at various fixed limits relative to the flat 10 cent rate of bonus that Paradise pays directly. we'll use a fair median pot size of 7BB's per raked hand as a control group:

limit - typical pot - typical rake - player's share (10 max) - 25% rakeback
50c/$1 - $7.00 - $0.50 - $0.05 - $0.0125
$1/$2 - $14.00 - $0.75 - $0.075 - $0.01875
$2/4 - $28.00 - $1.00 - $0.10 - $0.025
$3/6 - $42.00 - $2.00 - $0.20 - $0.05
$5/$10+ - $70.00+ - $3.00 - $0.30 - $0.075
meanwhile...Paradise bonus would already pay $0.10/hand at ANY limit!

so yes, while you're earning a bonus from a site, you cannot get rakeback added to it at the same time. in other words, if you were playing $5/10, you would not get 10 cents per hand PLUS 7.5 cents. however, the higher limits you bet, the less number of ADDITIONAL raked hands you would have to play in order to offset the original amount of the bonus itself.

let's say your favorite site has a $100 monthly reload with a 10x raked hand requirement like Paradise. here's how many hands you'd have to play at various limits in order to offset the bonus revenue and begin to actually receive rakeback for the month (after the first 1000 hands):

limit - hands to earn $100 bonus - additional hands until rakeback
50c/$1 - 1000 - 7000 ($100 divided by $0.0125, minus 1000)
$1/$2 - 1000 - 4333 (0.01875)
$2/4 - 1000 - 3000 (0.025)
$3/6 - 1000 - 1000 (0.05)
$5/$10+ - 1000 - 333 (0.075)

so I'd say, from $5/10 and up, the few number of hands required to become rakeback positive after a bonus has cleared, makes it a good cutoff point to start thinking about rakeback viability. however, there's still a few points to keep in mind:

1. a bonus which pays 10 cents per raked hand is only in the middle of what's available out there, competition-wise. many sites pay as much as 20 cents of bonus per hand so your hand requirements to offset MGR towards positive rakeback will be as much as doubled. this can be partitially offset by playing at 6-max tables, where your personal revenue earnings per raked hand are 40% higher.

2. it's still technically more lucrative on a per raked hand basis to continue bouncing around multiple sites to collect reload bonuses, because a majority bonuses pay more than even the best rakeback deal at the highest limits. you would only be a strong candidate for rakeback over bonuses if:
- a) you play a LOT more hands each month then there are bonuses available. (15000-20000+, or 5000-10000+ at mid-high limits)
- b) you prefer to stay on a particular site due to its unimitable level of fishyness. or the software makes you play better. or its compatible with a piece of tracking/auxiliary software that you utilize to monitor your stats. or your spiritual advisor told you so.

that's it I think...

[playersare]

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I want to ask where I can find the best rakeback dealing in setting up a new account, but I fear that a discussion on that topic would violate the "no affiliate zone" policy since any recommendations would count as endorsing an affiliate. Yes?

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pretty much yes. your best bet is browse the classified ads (link at the upper left of the navigation bar) and see what people are offering. it is also likely that since you openly mentioned your status, that you've received some unsolicited PM's in your mailbox already (not me, I'm not in this biz).

I believe it's okay to mention here some offsite links like moondoggpoker.com and rakerebatereview.com, which provide unbiased coverage of the affiliate market and do not specifically endorse any particular rakeback business.

[Player12345]

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2. it's still technically more lucrative on a per raked hand basis to continue bouncing around multiple sites to collect reload bonuses, because a majority bonuses pay more than even the best rakeback deal at the highest limits.

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this is something that so few of the online rookies understand when they see all these rakeback posts and discussion. none of the rakeback affiliates will educate them either so they will continue to do it wrong.

if someone plays high limit and volume then a rakeback deal is far superior to bonus whoring because there is not enough free money offered each month for these players. but the people who play micro up to small stakes should be moving money and play all over the place to whore. the affiliates that make a living on rakeback deals don't like this whoring because they never make a dime off of the whores. but the small stakes whores are doing it right. whoring beats rakeback for a majority of people posting on these forums imho.

[playersare]

sorry I made some minor math mistakes in my chart above, but I can't correct them from here. I will post the changes a little later tonight.

my overall conclusions from the study are unchanged, though.

[kim2005]

let say u have 25% rake back in the site and playing the 100 bonus 7x, after finished 700 hands u get $100, then if u play more hand do u get the same amount 25% rake back?

[playersare]

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let say u have 25% rake back in the site and playing the 100 bonus 7x, after finished 700 hands u get $100, then if u play more hand do u get the same amount 25% rake back?

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depends on what limits you play. you must generate enough rake revenue to pay for the upfront bonus on the site before you can begin earning towards rakeback.

here are the corrected figures from before. the additional hands required to become rakeback positive are based on generated revenue per hand, not the actual rakeback royalty.

limit - hands to earn $100 bonus - additional hands until rakeback - per hand earnings afterwards
50c/$1 - 1000 - 1000 ($100 divided by $0.05, minus 1000) - $0.0125 per hand after 2000
$1/$2 - 1000 - 333 - $0.01875/hand after 1333
$2/4 - 1000 - cleared - $0.025/hand after 1000
$3/6 - 1000 - cleared + $25 - $0.05/hand after 500
$5/$10+ - 1000 - cleared + $50 - $0.075/hand after 333

[mosquito]

I just got into rakeback. After clearing my initial
bonus the first day, I emailed my affiliate and asked
if I should set up another acct at another skin w/
rakeback and he emphatically replied "yes".

If you play enough, you want both for sure.(rakeback
and whoring).