JJ big pot brewing 1 overcard-flop decision

[roy_miami]

Hi all,

10 handed 15/30, good game

Hero is MP2 with black Jacks


Preflop: UT2 calls, UTG3 calls, 1 fold, I raise with JJ, folded to LAG button who makes it 3 bets, loose passive SB calls, BB folds the rest all call. Should I cap or no cap? Its probably close with the looseness of my opponents.

Flop:4KT rainbow

SB checks, UTG2 bets (no reads on him whatsoever except he only has $45 in chips left), UTG3 folds, I fold

With the combined aggressiveness and passiveness of the players to act behind me, no amount of betting, calling or raising would give me any idea if my hand was good or not. I decided at this moment to either fold now or go to showdown (unless an Ace comes off maybe).

Anybody have any "good" lines for this situation?

[Levi King]

I would cap pre-flop against a LAG 3B in this position.

With no read on the short stacked flop bettor, I'll probably raise here and see what develops. Guys do strange things short stacked.

[elysium]

hi roy

on the pre-flop you must know that you will not get it short-handed by raising. you also must know that a raise or reraise is likely coming back around...., and also that you will often have to deal with an over-card.

you're good to raise pre-flop.

the flop....well, not having any working knowledge about the SB is problematic. the thing is; why didn't he go for a driveout check-raise to possibly get heads-up with the button? because the SB must have a strong hand often enough to make folding on the flop correct. you got it. good fold. i'm not crazy about the pre-flop, but the raise is fine as long as you play well post flop, which it appears you do.

often, we form some reasonably accurate conclusions on where we stand in a hand by observing the actions of our opponents. however, oftentimes, what our opponents don't do can be even more revealing. when the SB here doesn't take advantage of a driveout check-raise to get heads-up against the button, but instead bets-out, and willingly faces the button's seemingly inevitable raise with opponents left to act behind him, it is what he doesn't do that matters most. you see, the SB forfeits a lot when he doesn't check to the aggressive button. in return for his bet, the only thing he gets is a big pot that will require him to have the goods on showdown. the only time that works out well is when he is powerfully strong, or, less oftenly, holding a powerful draw or a less powerful one, with a lot of outs. his action suggests the first and former; that SB has a strong made hand.

the flop isn't a tough fold so much as it is a smart fold. i'm still in favor of limping rather than raising, but i'm not so certain about that. i could be wrong about that. i don't know.

the fold; i know that the fold is good. sometimes, you will be folding the best hand in this spot. over the long run though, this fold will save you many bets.

the raise....o.k.; it's starting to make sense. you know, i might like that raise. i can dig it. what about that raise? it even has a beat. pa,pa,pa, pa,pa,pa bipity beep cha cha cha. now fall in with that button: uh oyf? oyf?! uh uh (bipeelybeef) kaboom!! "see how they run" oyf! oyf!, with much clapping.

i like it roy. you may have a hit here.

[Deftoner]

[ QUOTE ]
I would cap pre-flop against a LAG 3B in this position.

With no read on the short stacked flop bettor, I'll probably raise here and see what develops. Guys do strange things short stacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you cap 5 way with JJ OOP? Hand seems pretty standard all around.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: UT2 calls, UTG3 calls, 1 fold, I raise with JJ, folded to LAG button who makes it 3 bets, loose passive SB calls, BB folds the rest all call. Should I cap or no cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the maniac making it 3 bets and the cold-calling idiots coming along, you almost certainly have the best hand. Re-raise them and punish them while you have the equity advantage.

[Levi King]

Because you likely have the best hand.

[jogger08152]

"Probably having the best hand" does not mean "you should raise." It's impressive that somebody posts this error in almost every thread where the hero starts with a S&M group 1 or 2 hand.

Preflop here, if hero had 2-2, it would "probably" be the best hand. 4 loose opponents = ~25% chance there's a bigger pair out against you. If you prefer S&M rankings for determining "bestness", then let's say hero has JTs. Should JTs cap preflop here, given that it's likely best?

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop here, if hero had 2-2, it would "probably" be the best hand. 4 loose opponents = ~25% chance

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but does 22 have any chance winning unimproved against these same opponents. when you have a hand that is most likely best, AND will stay that way til the end of the hand (like JJ-AA), then you are making money reraising preflop after a maniac 3 bets and some other idiots come along.

[ QUOTE ]
It's impressive that somebody posts this error in almost every thread where the hero starts with a S&M group 1 or 2 hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

you obviously dont have much understanding of pf play in limit games. stick around here for a while and try reading, instead of posting for a while.

[roy_miami]

It's very possible, probably even likely that I have each of my opponents dominated, but collectively they likely have all the overcards covered. If the maniac had of driven out a couple of my oppenents I would have capped for sure, but in this situation it must be close at best.

[jogger08152]

I'm not arguing that you gain no equity by raising. (And at no point did I argue against raising this hand, incidentally.)

What I see constantly is people posting statements equivalent to "having the best hand before the flop always merits a raise." It clearly does not.